墨虎恺“燃点”专访没顶公司创始人徐震

　　(此邮件访谈于2011年9月-10月间完成)

　　墨虎恺：谁是没顶公司，公司如何运行，创造性的决定如何产生?

　　徐 震：没顶公司是一种方法;是一个行政机构;是一种玩儿法，公司由艺术总监制来决定。而不是一个“团体”，一个“政府”或一个“学派”?你跟其他艺术家不同，你可以随便选一个种类而且都可以把它做出来。

　　徐 震：公司的模式是一种“有限的民主”。公司模式是不完美的。

　　徐 震：“完美”

　　墨虎恺：对于没顶公司，什么是好的批评?

　　徐 震：好的批评和好的创作一样散发着自身的光芒。

　　墨虎恺：这个听起来很神奇，你是不是在回避问题?

　　徐 震：批评必须把自己当回事儿。

　　墨虎恺：那样不一定对批评有帮助。其实看没顶的作品，一个把自己当回事的评论家可能会跟盲人一样。批评是否至少允许自己苦笑一下?

　　徐 震：很难找到一个有幽默感的批评家。

　　墨虎恺：是!那我幽默吗?

　　徐 震：你真幽默呀!

　　墨虎恺：论为一个很讽刺的艺术家。你认为自己讽刺吗?

　　徐 震：讽刺能迫使自

　　墨虎恺：所以只是一个工具，一个跟观众互动、让他们醒过来的一种方式?如何用没顶第一个个展”看见自己的眼睛”来诠释这种思路?

　　徐 震：“看见自己的眼睛”这个项目就是混杂了讽刺、自我迷恋、探索、挖掘，利用差异性等各种不同方法的系列作品。观者也会不自觉的踏入不同的观看思维角度

　　判断作品，这是一个跳跃在不同文化而不停留其中的状态。没得到，因为他得到的也应该是不知道如何使用的经验。这样，这个作品才够无聊。

　　墨虎恺：回得好!你谈到“讽刺、自我迷恋、探索、挖掘”是讽刺(没顶经常被批评为很讽刺)，而非单一思考的机器，用来引发思考。

　　徐 震：讽刺思考，也不得不思考，估计这就是西西弗的悲剧?掺杂一些闹剧或喜剧的因素进去吧。而且，作品作为创造力的结果之一，也的确是媒体化、多功能化的，而且需要不断被发掘它的功能。所以，我们公司现在强调公司的目标是“生产创造力”，而不只是创造伟大的作品。这可能是第一步吧。

　　墨虎恺：是否可

　　徐 震：“伟大的艺术”这个概念在今天很可疑，因为我们深深的感到，眼前的情况就是“怎么做都是不够的”，总是苛刻的，不满足的不断产生新的欲望、要求和范围。

　　创造力是指产生新思想，发现和创造新事物的能力。

　　，好像涉及到Ma rshall McLuhan经常被误会的一句话“媒介的结果或信息，只有持续的调解一种“形式的河流”。

　　徐 震：就像战争一样，越打越乱，越来越多的投入，越来越多的头绪，到一定时候，随便从“战场”上拿起一些什么，就能说明一些问题。

　　墨虎恺：他们的”媒体”怎么从2009年的“看见自己的眼睛”发展到现在?

　　徐 震：从“中东系列”的观看误解到“蔓延系列”的“探讨需求”，再到“意识形状”的“信仰的拼贴”，还有这次“意识行动”里面强调的“在行动”这些思路和作品之间总是不断的互相启发、互相补充、不断的扩大、卷入。

　　墨虎恺：你在中东展览里提出的“误解”是什么意思?

　　徐 震：观看的误解是一种’由于好奇引起的供需关系。

　　墨虎恺：你提出的“好奇”是什么意思?其实，比如说当这样的误解威胁到了过程，那出现的效果是什么?

　　徐 震：作材料之一，我们的工作就是调整好这样的误解。

　　墨虎恺：那么这个“观看误解”是否是没顶公司特意制造的效果?举个例子，如果拿这个作品跟之前徐震做的《饥饿的苏丹》来比较，没顶公司的态度是什么?

　　徐 震：“观看的误解”只是一个工作的起点和理由，毕竟徐震是公司总监。看待。。没顶公司新系列《玩》跟日本传统性仪式和各民族雕塑有关。这个作品看起来会起和《饥饿的苏丹》同样的反映，可以说大部分人看东西的时候像盲人一样，但刺激是否必须对自己的含糊道德负责?这既有趣又危险。

　　徐震：说得好。

　　墨虎恺：那么“观看误解”是没顶公司策略的一个无可避免的副作用吗?如果是，那么没顶公司的策略目标是什么?其实，如果只是永久的“媒体的媒体化”、以及刺激和反映的重复循环，那重点是什么?

　　徐 震：什么是副作用?“媒体的媒体化”只是我们关注的一个问题，或者是我们公司最近创作上的一种特征，在这个基础上我们已经陆续的发展出一些新的观点和做法，况且我们更愿意看到和相信“实践”，必须不断的实践，才可能遇到问题。

　　墨虎恺：你们如何“实践”，这跟其他的艺术制作者有什么区别?

　　徐 震：通过管理来创作艺术。区别在于谁在做。

　　墨虎恺：能不能解释下管理过程，比如哪里一样，哪里不一样?制作图片比较?

　　徐 震：区别是为某人服务，还是在为某品牌服务。

　　墨虎恺：这个是“艺术家”的革新程度：

　　徐 震：同时，避免把问题艺术化。

　　墨虎恺：其实已经避免了。没顶公司是有道德的还是是相对论主义者?

　　徐 震：没顶公司的价值观更倾向于一种移动的、不断变化的认识。

　　墨虎恺：这个听起来也有点回避，这个就是回答吗?

　　徐 震：对，只要”道德”不成为创作的障碍就可以。

　　墨虎恺：比如说?这个听起来很像纳博科夫对懒惰读者的批评：“一个更希望被娇惯，而不去考虑作者在做什么的读者”。你的理想观众是什么?他会怎样看待没顶的制作?

　　徐 震：理想的观众总是不会出现在你需要他的时候。所以，不用为他担心。

　　徐 震：作内容之一。

　　墨虎恺：你会怎么描述其他的创造内容?

　　徐 震：比如“测试”、 “寻找敌人”、

　　徐 震：这点上没区别，只要成为重要的就行。

　　墨虎恺：怎么重要?

　　徐 震：你们认为重要就行。

　　徐 震：你最近在瑞士伯尔尼美术馆和北京长征空间展出的“意识形状”(由很多不同宗教动作构成的健身操)是否也属于“观看误解”的一个例子呢?(永久)效果?

　　徐 震：意识形状最重要的特点是融合，在这样的方式的组合下，文明能够不冲突?或者文明就是有冲突才有存在感的?能否对我们的肉身产生影响? (现在看来，影响是肯定的)。时

　　间是否是这个作品另一个主要元素?就像时间对于瑜伽那样。

　　墨虎恺：在你的《蔓延》系列，比如说，“波浪”

　　尽之夏》。混合起来的感觉。但它也解构自己，涉面对一个漫画现实?

　　徐 震：说得好，漫画也是另一种平行现实。

　　墨虎恺：除了《玩》之外，没顶新作品包括《猎物》，贫穷房子的现实绘画以及《意识行动》(物品扔到空中)这些作品都会在同一个展览里展出，那么他们互相之间有什么关系?

　　徐 震：提供一种改变世界的关系。再次作为起点或终点，把称之为”作品”的东西，从当代艺术系统中(意识中)解放出来。

　　墨虎恺：对没顶公司来说“意识”什么意思?

　　徐 震：“想到”就是“意识”。

　　墨虎恺：你怎么看待《猎物》对去年北京展览作品艺术价值观的开发，就是当时那组照片的价值出自于照片内容的价值?

　　徐 震：这个作品完整来看其实是个“捕获猎物的过程”，同时为了满足人们对古典的情怀，对“穷”美学的追求。人总是有追求的。

　　墨虎恺：规模在“徐震”作品里一直是一个很重要的方面。对没顶来说“规模”是一个怎样的角色?比如，没顶公司成立之后，上海当代的“微软耐克跑步者”(野人)?

　　徐 震：规模是由需求造成的。

　　墨虎恺：各尽所求?(他在这里涉及到马克思“各尽所能”)

　　徐 震：需求、供求、创造、接纳，共同成为了今天新的艺术格局，而不只是简单的一个作品(和“多重作者”的概念接近)。

　　墨虎恺：没顶有没有或者会有一个“作品”(大师作品?)或反过来一直努力避免这个?

　　徐 震：我们希望在一个竞争机制里，用竞争的方式来进行竞争。

　　墨虎恺：跟什么竞争?很多很厉害的竞争者用品牌，用他们的“风格”来宣传自己。但没顶说避开这些，

　　对没顶来说所有的东西都是媒体，破坏了艺术(市场)系统的最基本基础。

　　徐 震：我们想做吊那块肉的人。

　　墨虎恺：没顶是否通过制作去造一种自由?

　　徐 震：没有自由。

　　墨虎恺：没顶是否享受一些自由类型，比如制作公司制作的?

　　徐 震：没有。

　　墨虎恺：这个访谈是否自由?

　　徐 震：这个访谈，深刻而无法忘却。

　　墨虎恺：有那么差吗?那么为了满足偏见，你希望怎样改变世界让它更好?

　　徐 震：搞乱它。

　　墨虎恺：艺术本身是否(还)存在?

　　徐 震：艺术不会独立存在。

　　墨虎恺：没错，但你在做的东西是不是几乎跟“艺术”这个词无关?好像已经过期了。你的制作可以很成功地在一个超市、马路上、工厂、在一个艺术画廊等处展示。

　　徐 震：没错。

　　墨虎恺：俄罗斯导演塔可夫斯基写过“别试图把你的想法传给观众，是一个费力不讨好、没有意义的任务。给他们看生活，而他们会从心理自己找到理解和欣赏的方式”。没顶的想法是否成功地传达?

　　徐 震：你只要传达就行了。

　　墨虎恺：有什么问题我本应该问你?(还有，什么样的问题你不会回答?)

　　徐 震：暂时没遇到。

　　Made Up Interview

　　An Interview with MadeIn Company founder, Xu Zhen, by Chris Moore "Randian" (via E-mail).

　　Chris Moore: Who is MadeIn, how does the company work, how are creative decisions made?

　　Xu Zhen: MadeIn Company is a method, an administrative structure, a way of playing, each employee of the company composes this system and the art director makes the decisions.

　　CM: But why specifically a company instead of, for instance, a ‘collective’, a ‘government’, a ‘school’? Unlike other artists, you could choose anything and it would work.

　　XZ: The model of the company is a certain “limited democracy.”

　　The model of the company isn’t perfect.

　　CM: That sounds like democracy itself but in what ways would you say it is not ‘perfect’?

　　XZ: “Perfection" is this piece of meat hanging in front of us that we are never able to eat.

　　*****

　　CM: MadeIn, what is good criticism?

　　XZ: Good criticism is like a good creation, it emanates inner flame.

　　CM: That sounds like magic - are you avoiding the question?

　　XZ: When criticizing you have to take yourself seriously.

　　CM: What do you mean by ‘curiosity’? After all, what happens when, for instance,

　　such ‘misunderstanding’ threatens the process itself?

　　XZ: Observing curiosity is one of the creating [sic] materials of this work.

　　Our work is to adjust this kind of misunderstanding.

　　CM: Then is this ‘observation misunderstanding’ a deliberate effect of the scenarios constructed by MadeIn? For instance, how would MadeIn position this in comparison with, for instance, the strategies of Xu Zhen’s now infamous “The Starving of Sudan”? 1

　　XZ: “Observation misunderstanding” is only a working starting point and a reason, though it was undoubtedly developed from Xu Zhen’s working methods. After all, Xu Zhen is the director of the company.

　　*****

　　CM: Various Western observers misinterpreted “The Starving of Sudan”, failing to see its installation as a whole and over-identifying with their own historical context.2 MadeIn’s new series, “Play”, involves sculptural montages of people of various ethnicities engaged in traditional Japanese forms of bondage. This looks likely to provoke a similar reaction to the “Sudan” work. One could say that people are most blind when they are looking but doesn’t provocation have to be responsible for its own moral ambiguity, the very thing that makes it both interesting and dangerous?

　　XZ: Well said.

　　CM: Is then “observation misunderstanding” an inevitable side effect of MadeIn's strategies? If so, it begs the question of what is the objective of MadeIn’s strategies? After all, if there is simply endless mediation of media, a cycle of provocation and reaction, what's the point?

　　XZ: What is a ‘side effect’?

　　Mediation of media, is only one issue that we are focusing on, or rather it is a certain characteristic that our company created recently. We have been continuously developing new approaches and methods on this basis. Besides, we are more willing to see and believe “practice”. We have to practice unceasingly to encounter certain issues.

　　CM: How do you practice and how does that differ from other art producers?

　　XZ: By creating through managing. The difference lies in who is producing.

　　CM: Could you describe the process of managing? For instance, how is it similar or different to, say, Zhou Tiehai’s selection of images to be produced by members of his atelier?

　　XZ: The difference is whether you are at the service of someone, or at the service of a brand.

　　For example, during a discussion, there can be some new thoughts and directions, and then the art director will take the decisions.

　　CM: Is this the current point in the evolution of ‘artists’ – radical management consultants and idea scientists?

　　XZ: At the same time, the fact of avoiding turns the question in an artistic way.

　　CM: …if in fact it has been avoided. Is MadeIn moral or relativist?

　　XZ: The value of MadeIn Company is closer to a certain shifting, a continuous changing knowledge.

　　CM: That sounds like an elision - is that the answer?

　　XZ: As long as “morality” doesn’t become an obstacle to creation, then it’s fine.

　　CM: And that sounds similar to Nabokov’s critique of the lazy reader – someone who wants to be spoon-fed instead of asking what the ‘author’ is trying to do. What is your ideal ‘viewer’ – how will she approach MadeIn’s production?

　　XZ: The ideal viewer would never appear when you need it.

　　CM: Are people sometimes too grown-up when they try to understand MadeIn’s production – does it help to be child-like?

　　XZ: It doesn’t matter, there aren’t seamless eggs.

　　CM: Would you say that ‘Observation Misunderstanding ’ is one of the principle media with which MadeIn plays and experiments?

　　XZ: Maybe it could be described as the main content that was created since the establishment of the company.

　　CM: How would you describe the other or supporting content?

　　XZ: For example, “examining” “looking for enemies” and “recurrent dissatisfaction” are topics that are being created.

　　CM: Are some or all of these topics are particularly relevant to society in China now or are these topics ‘world’ topics?

　　XZ: There aren’t differences; it just has to be important.

　　CM: Important – how?

　　XZ: As long as you think it is important, then it’s fine.

　　CM: Is your recent ‘Physique of Consciousness’ project at the Bern Kunsthalle and at Long March Space in Beijing - which conflates sacred gestures from many religious practices - an example of how people’s ‘observation misunderstanding’ operates? Or is it an example of how we are caught within media, that is, how life itself becomes an (endless) effect of media and mediation?

　　XZ: The main aspect of Physique of Consciousness is “combination”. Can such a way of composing avoid civilizations’ conflict? Or must civilizations be in conflict to have a sense of existence? Can it influence our bodies? (Looking at it now, there certainly is an influence). Is time another main element of this work as time for yoga is?

　　*****

　　CM: In your ‘Spread’ series, the wave, for instance, is both an endless Hokusai-tsunami and a Californian ‘Endless Summer ’.3 But then it deconstructs itself, with references to Pop art and cheap artifice - the fake sun lit up like a Las Vegas motel-vacancy sign. In some sense is MadeIn, as parodist, seeking to confront us with a comic reality in our own (comic) reality?

　　XZ: Well said, comic is also another parallel reality.

　　CM: Besides “Play”, MadeIn’s new work includes “Prey”, realistic paintings of poor homes (emphasised in the catalogue by being ‘displayed’ in wealthy homes) and also “Action of Consciousness”, which involves CM: Is MadeIn manufacturing a type of freedom?

　　XZ: There is no freedom.

　　CM: Doesn’t MadeIn enjoy types of freedoms, for instance to produce what it produces?

　　XZ: No.

　　CM: Was this interview free?

　　XZ: This interview was deep and unforgettable.

　　CM: That bad, huh? Well, for the sake of cliché, how would you wish to change the world for the better?

　　XZ: Make it chaotic.

　　*****

　　CM: Does art as a thing really exist (any more)?

　　XZ: Art wouldn’t exist independently.

　　CM: True but is the term ‘art’ almost irrelevant to what you do? It seems so old fashioned. Your production could be just as successfully shown in a supermarket, on the street, in a factory, as in an art gallery, if not more so.

　　XZ: Right

　　CM: The Russian filmmaker Andrej Tarkovsky wrote “Never try to convey your idea to the audience - it is a thankless and senseless task. Show them life, and they’l find within themselves the means to assess and appreciate it. ”Are MadeIn’s ideas successfully communicated?

　　XZ: As long as it is communicated, then it's fine.

　　CM: What questions should I have asked you? (And which ones would you not have answered?)

　　XZ: At the moment there aren't any questions.

　　CM：That may not help the critic.In fact,looking at Madeln!s work,a critic who takes himself serious~m|ght

　　just as well be blind.Isn’t the critic allowed at least a wry smile?

　　XZ：It is hard to find a critic who has humOr.

　　CM：True.DO I

　　XZ：You are really humorous!

　　CM：Which if 1 was a very naive critic I m-ght almost think was flattery!But let。s move on.You are often

　　criticized for being very cynical，Do you consider yourself cynical or iS thiS supposed'cynicismt just a type of

　　sincerity,another way of speaking?

　　XZ：Cynicism can force oneself to present quickly a clear attitude and expectancy，because we are often very

　　passive.

　　CM：So it's simply a tool a method to engage the audience to interact,to bring them out of their torpor?How

　　wouldyou sayyourfirstshow,“Seeing One’s Own Eyes”，fits into this gambit?

　　XZ：As a way of beginning.

　　One of the ways is very important—because you have to combine different ways，otherwise it would become

　　very unitary.Even a good single way can be very dull.“Seeing One’s Own Eyes”was a series of works that

　　combined cynicism，ego，exploration，digging，exploited differences and various other aspects.Viewers

　　would unconsciously step into different ways or angles of observation to judge the artworks.It is an attitude

　　that jumps through different cultures without staying in any one of them.We hope that viewers feel that they

　　weren’t prepared for it because what they get is an experience that they probably don’t know how to use.This

　　way，this artwork can be boring enough.

　　CM：Great answed You speak of“cynicism，ego，exploration，digging”and so on，as if they were types of

　　media in themselves.not mere provocations--a common accusation of Madeln--but non.unitary machines

　　forthinking。thatis。forprovoking thought.

　　XZ：When provoking thoughts，one still needs to think--perhaps this is[the nature of]Sisyphus’s myth?

　　Therefore.we also hope that this kind of behavior adds elements frOm comedy 0r farce as much as possible.

　　On top of that，as a result of creativity，artworks indeed become media，become multi.functional.And one must

　　excavate their functions.

　　Therefore，our company emphasizes its aim，which is“to produce creativity”，and not creating great works.

　　This is probably the first step.

　　CM：Doesn’t it help to produce great'creativity’by producing great art?And what does'creativity’mean

　　anyway?Are you society's anthropologist or psychoanalyst?

　　XZ：The concept of‘great art’today is very doubtfuI.because we deeply feeI that the situation we are facing

　　now is‘no matter how much we do，it is never enough’.New desires，requests and fields of action are

　　unceasingly produced and are always harsh，unsatisfied.

　　Creativity relates to a new reflection.discovering and creating new functions for‘objects’.

　　CM：This brings us back to‘creating creativity’and would appear to reference Marshall McLuhan's oft

　　misunderstood quote“The medium is the message'~whereby the message is structurally and materially

　　affected by the form it takes。In the Madeln cosmos though there is no final outcome or message。just

　　unceasmg mediation—a'stream of form。'

　　XZ：Like a war，the more you fight，the messier it gets.There are more and more commitments，more and

　　more leads，but at a certain point，you can randomly take something in this“war’’that would explain some

　　questions.

　　cM:Could you put this in the context Of vour often—controversial wall-works?How have they developed their

　　‘media’since 2009，S‘Seeing One，S 0wn Eyes’exhibition to theirmost recent iterations?

　　XZ：From the misunderstanding in the“Middle Eastern Contemporary Art”show to the exploration in the

　　“Spread”series.then to the beIiefs.collage in“Physique of COnsciOusness”.and this time’s“Action Of

　　COnsciOusness”emphasizing the idea of being“in action”，all these works stimulate，complete each other,and

　　are continuously being developed.

　　CM：What do you mean by the'misunderstanding：in the MECA show?

　　XZ：Observation misunderstanding is a certain supply-demand relation caused by

　　curiosity.

　　Chris Moore: Who is MadeIn, how does the company work, how are creative decisions made?

　　Xu Zhen: MadeIn Company is a method, an administrative structure, a way of playing, each employee of the company composes this system and the art director makes the decisions.

　　CM: But why specifically a company instead of, for instance, a ‘collective’, a ‘government’, a ‘school’? Unlike other artists, you could choose anything and it would work.

　　XZ: The model of the company is a certain “limited democracy.”

　　The model of the company isn’t perfect.

　　CM: That sounds like democracy itself but in what ways would you say it is not ‘perfect’?

　　XZ: “Perfection" is this piece of meat hanging in front of us that we are never able to eat.

　　*****

　　CM: MadeIn, what is good criticism?

　　XZ: Good criticism is like a good creation, it emanates inner flame.

　　CM: That sounds like magic - are you avoiding the question?

　　XZ: When criticizing you have to take yourself seriously.

　　CM: What do you mean by ‘curiosity’? After all, what happens when, for instance,

　　such ‘misunderstanding’ threatens the process itself?

　　XZ: Observing curiosity is one of the creating [sic] materials of this work.

　　Our work is to adjust this kind of misunderstanding.

　　CM: Then is this ‘observation misunderstanding’ a deliberate effect of the scenarios constructed by MadeIn? For instance, how would MadeIn position this in comparison with, for instance, the strategies of Xu Zhen’s now infamous “The Starving of Sudan”? 1

　　XZ: “Observation misunderstanding” is only a working starting point and a reason, though it was undoubtedly developed from Xu Zhen’s working methods. After all, Xu Zhen is the director of the company.

　　*****

　　CM: Various Western observers misinterpreted “The Starving of Sudan”, failing to see its installation as a whole and over-identifying with their own historical context.2 MadeIn’s new series, “Play”, involves sculptural montages of people of various ethnicities engaged in traditional Japanese forms of bondage. This looks likely to provoke a similar reaction to the “Sudan” work. One could say that people are most blind when they are looking but doesn’t provocation have to be responsible for its own moral ambiguity, the very thing that makes it both interesting and dangerous?

　　XZ: Well said.

　　CM: Is then “observation misunderstanding” an inevitable side effect of MadeIn's strategies? If so, it begs the question of what is the objective of MadeIn’s strategies? After all, if there is simply endless mediation of media, a cycle of provocation and reaction, what's the point?

　　XZ: What is a ‘side effect’?

　　Mediation of media, is only one issue that we are focusing on, or rather it is a certain characteristic that our company created recently. We have been continuously developing new approaches and methods on this basis. Besides, we are more willing to see and believe “practice”. We have to practice unceasingly to encounter certain issues.

　　CM: How do you practice and how does that differ from other art producers?

　　XZ: By creating through managing. The difference lies in who is producing.

　　CM: Could you describe the process of managing? For instance, how is it similar or different to, say, Zhou Tiehai’s selection of images to be produced by members of his atelier?

　　XZ: The difference is whether you are at the service of someone, or at the service of a brand.

　　For example, during a discussion, there can be some new thoughts and directions, and then the art director will take the decisions.

　　CM: Is this the current point in the evolution of ‘artists’ – radical management consultants and idea scientists?

　　XZ: At the same time, the fact of avoiding turns the question in an artistic way.

　　CM: …if in fact it has been avoided. Is MadeIn moral or relativist?

　　XZ: The value of MadeIn Company is closer to a certain shifting, a continuous changing knowledge.

　　CM: That sounds like an elision - is that the answer?

　　XZ: As long as “morality” doesn’t become an obstacle to creation, then it’s fine.

　　CM: And that sounds similar to Nabokov’s critique of the lazy reader – someone who wants to be spoon-fed instead of asking what the ‘author’ is trying to do. What is your ideal ‘viewer’ – how will she approach MadeIn’s production?

　　XZ: The ideal viewer would never appear when you need it.

　　CM: Are people sometimes too grown-up when they try to understand MadeIn’s production – does it help to be child-like?

　　XZ: It doesn’t matter, there aren’t seamless eggs.

　　CM: Would you say that ‘Observation Misunderstanding ’ is one of the principle media with which MadeIn plays and experiments?

　　XZ: Maybe it could be described as the main content that was created since the establishment of the company.

　　CM: How would you describe the other or supporting content?

　　XZ: For example, “examining” “looking for enemies” and “recurrent dissatisfaction” are topics that are being created.

　　CM: Are some or all of these topics are particularly relevant to society in China now or are these topics ‘world’ topics?

　　XZ: There aren’t differences; it just has to be important.

　　CM: Important – how?

　　XZ: As long as you think it is important, then it’s fine.

　　CM: Is your recent ‘Physique of Consciousness’ project at the Bern Kunsthalle and at Long March Space in Beijing - which conflates sacred gestures from many religious practices - an example of how people’s ‘observation misunderstanding’ operates? Or is it an example of how we are caught within media, that is, how life itself becomes an (endless) effect of media and mediation?

　　XZ: The main aspect of Physique of Consciousness is “combination”. Can such a way of composing avoid civilizations’ conflict? Or must civilizations be in conflict to have a sense of existence? Can it influence our bodies? (Looking at it now, there certainly is an influence). Is time another main element of this work as time for yoga is?

　　*****

　　CM: In your ‘Spread’ series, the wave, for instance, is both an endless Hokusai-tsunami and a Californian ‘Endless Summer ’.3 But then it deconstructs itself, with references to Pop art and cheap artifice - the fake sun lit up like a Las Vegas motel-vacancy sign. In some sense is MadeIn, as parodist, seeking to confront us with a comic reality in our own (comic) reality?

　　XZ: Well said, comic is also another parallel reality.

　　CM: Besides “Play”, MadeIn’s new work includes “Prey”, realistic paintings of poor homes (emphasised in the catalogue by being ‘displayed’ in wealthy homes) and also “Action of Consciousness”, which involves CM: Is MadeIn manufacturing a type of freedom?

　　XZ: There is no freedom.

　　CM: Doesn’t MadeIn enjoy types of freedoms, for instance to produce what it produces?

　　XZ: No.

　　CM: Was this interview free?

　　XZ: This interview was deep and unforgettable.

　　CM: That bad, huh? Well, for the sake of cliché, how would you wish to change the world for the better?

　　XZ: Make it chaotic.

　　*****

　　CM: Does art as a thing really exist (any more)?

　　XZ: Art wouldn’t exist independently.

　　CM: True but is the term ‘art’ almost irrelevant to what you do? It seems so old fashioned. Your production could be just as successfully shown in a supermarket, on the street, in a factory, as in an art gallery, if not more so.

　　XZ: Right

　　CM: The Russian filmmaker Andrej Tarkovsky wrote “Never try to convey your idea to the audience - it is a thankless and senseless task. Show them life, and they’l find within themselves the means to assess and appreciate it. ”Are MadeIn’s ideas successfully communicated?

　　XZ: As long as it is communicated, then it's fine.

　　CM: What questions should I have asked you? (And which ones would you not have answered?)

　　XZ: At the moment there aren't any questions.

　　being thrown up into the air from a secretive booth.All of these works will be shown in the same exh~ition.

　　So what connects them?

　　XZ：Providing a relationship that changes the world.

　　To become a beginning or an end again.to liberate those things called”artworks”from the contemporary art

　　system(from consciousness).

　　CM：What does'consciousness’mean for MadeIn?

　　XZ：“。r0 think”iS”cOnsciOusness”.

　　CM：How do feel that"Prey"develops the status value of art explored in your Beijing show last year,whereby

　　value was ascribed to a photograph according to the value ofits subject?

　　XZ：From a general point of view，this artwork is a“process of prey capturing”[sic].At the same time，it is

　　meant to satisfy people’S feelings for classicism，and people’S aesthetic need for‘poverty’.

　　CM：Scale was an important aspect of work by‘Xu Zhen’.What sort ofrole does it play for MadeIn?

　　XZ：Scale was generated by needs.

　　CM：To each according to his needs from each according to their ability?

　　XZ：Needs，supplies，creation，admission，all became today。S new art pattern-it isn’t simply an artwork(close

　　to the concept of‘multiple authorship’).

　　CM：Does or will Madeln have an oeuvre or is it working hard to avoid one?

　　XZ：In a competitive mechanism，we use competition to compete.

　　CM：Compete against what?Many strong competitors use branding，their identifiable'style',to promote

　　themselves.But Madeln eschews this—for Madeln，everything isjust,though not pure，media.It subverts

　　this fundamental principal ofthe art(market)system.

　　XZ：We want to be the one who hangs the meat.