Setting the Scene：  Oscar-winning designer Tim Yip discusses his life in stage and screen 文：司马勤（Ken Smith）    编译：李正欣

　　多年来，叶锦添为各种戏剧冲突设计了绝妙的舞美：盛宗亮歌剧《红楼梦》的最后一幕，贾府被熊熊烈火烧毁，场面壮观；李安电影《卧虎藏龙》中的竹林比剑场景令影迷赞叹，也让这位资深设计师赢得了2001年奥斯卡金像奖最佳美术指导奖。对于叶锦添个人而言，最具戏剧性的时刻发生在2022年的莫斯科大剧院，当时他正作为舞美服装设计参与导演弗朗索瓦·吉拉尔（Franois Girard）的新版《罗恩格林》制作。首演后，在庆祝莫斯科大剧院与大都会歌剧院历史性合作的宴会上，俄乌发生冲突的新闻突如其来，访俄的国际制作团队不得不在第一时间匆匆撤离。

　　疫情期间，叶锦添常住在伦敦。但在过去的一年里，为了准备大都会版的《罗恩格林》（与莫斯科大剧院的合作取消后，大都会重新委约了舞美与服装的制作），他又在纽约待了几个月。导演吉拉尔早在2013年就为大都会执导过《帕西法尔》（Parsifal），他在剧中所描绘的末日世界既超乎现实又耐人寻味。当年的观众对舞台呈现以及主角阵容（由乔纳斯·考夫曼领衔）津津乐道，显然两者的吸引力不相伯仲，都令人着迷。今年吉拉尔终于有机会重返大都会，带来另一部瓦格纳经典。对于叶锦添来说，《罗恩格林》是他等待多年、终于可以跟吉拉尔这位加拿大籍法裔导演合作的难得机会。吉拉尔钟情大画面，与叶锦添意气相投。 去年夏天，旧金山歌剧院重演《红楼梦》。今年2至3月大都会《罗恩格林》的演出日程又巧遇《卧虎藏龙》4K修复版在全美电影院公映。与此同时，叶锦添为其他项目忙得不得半点闲，这些项目包括为明尼阿波利斯美术馆策展中国青铜专题展览，以及继续拍摄“半纪录形式”艺术电影《无尽的爱》（Love Infinity）。虽然工作繁忙，他还是抽出时间，一边喝着广东老火靓汤，一边聊聊他那范围极广的艺术生涯--从早年为香港电影缔造经典形象，到最近对瓦格纳的一些想法。瓦格纳笔下的人物具有的那种追寻佛法开悟的耐性，对叶锦添来说很有共鸣。

大都会歌剧院新制作的《罗恩格林》剧照

　　有些人用文字或音乐讲述故事。而你的叙事手法是图像，既有静态也有动态。可以聊聊你入行的故事吗？

　　我职业生涯的开端有多个层面。最初我想成为一名画家。但是我的哥哥是一位摄影师，他拥有很多器材，经常和那些漂亮的人见面与工作。所以，我学生时代的梦想就是以他为榜样，做个摄影师。我特别感兴趣的是棚拍摄影（配有专业灯光的内景摄影），还有纪实摄影。年轻的我曾经尝试过不同门类的创作--摄影、绘画、设计，在香港也参加过不少比赛。有一次我赢了一个设计大奖，夺得金奖，电影导演徐克刚好在派人物色后起之秀，便邀请了包括我在内的几位年轻人加入他新建立的电影工作室（Film Workshop）。当时我们讨论了许多项目，但是没有一个得以推进。后来，徐克导演介绍我跟吴宇森合作一部新电影，片名是《英雄本色》--没有人想过这部电影会一炮而红。

　　原来你就是让周润发穿上黑色风衣的那位形象设计师！

　　吴宇森早年是声名显赫的功夫电影导演张彻的副手。功夫片这类影片和西部牛仔片相仿：英雄人物，肝胆相照--为了朋友，他们愿意付出一切--这种义气深深地影响了吴宇森。吴导对于情义的看法也可以追溯至中国古代的侠客。徐克渴望拍摄以黑社会为主题的电影，因为他喜欢《教父》这一类好莱坞作品。但是，吴宇森心中的电影更浪漫。你会发现《英雄本色》中的服装具有“古装”韵味：比如说，黑色风衣在风中飘扬的姿态，就带有古代英雄形象的美感，如同传统功夫电影一般。

　　著名电影评论家大卫·波德维尔（David Bordwell）曾经告诉我，好莱坞致力模仿吴宇森的风格，却学错了方向，弄巧成拙。他说：“镜头跟着子弹飞是没用的。要看的是子弹的出处。”

　　对，那正是吴宇森充满浪漫的视野。

叶锦添与周润发的工作照

叶锦添与吴宇森的工作照

　　你的首部电影影响了你的艺术生涯吗？

　　《英雄本色》和我后来创作的舞蹈项目有密切的关系：衣服如何“称身”，如何与人体互动，全部都是我想要表达的信息。整个世界好像都能触发灵感，这一点我早已领略到了。中国古典美学不只是建立在地表的，一切都能想象成在空中浮动--人甚至可以在树叶上行走。这种美学的最高境界出现在《卧虎藏龙》里，正巧那部电影也是周润发主演的。我为他创造出了他最令人难忘的两个银幕形象。

　　现在让我们跳转到《罗恩格林》的话题吧。主创团队是哪一年邀请你参与其中的？

　　我跟导演弗朗索瓦·吉拉尔是多年的好朋友。我们本来有机会在中国合作创作一个大型的剧场秀（规模像太阳马戏团），但后来制作团队换了导演，请来了弗兰克·德贡（Franco Dragone）。弗朗索瓦与我有很多共通点，大家很想找个机会合作。所以几年后，当他开始筹备《罗恩格林》时，打来电话跟我说：“终于有机会了……”

　　这个新制作首先在莫斯科大剧院（Bolshoi Theatre）上演。筹备与排演过程又怎样？

　　相当复杂。首先，筹备期恰逢疫情高峰，莫斯科大剧院对抗疫防疫十分慎重，他们在视频会议中都戴上口罩。那也是我首次在俄罗斯工作。我曾被邀请去那里做装置艺术的展览，但那些计划都没有成行。这部《罗恩格林》也是大都会歌剧院首次与莫斯科大剧院携手合作。原定的计划是在莫斯科首演，所以我们主要的准备工作全都要在俄罗斯做好，大都会的制作团队只是观察和跟进。因为从未合作过，我们也无法一直待在莫斯科，所以大家整理了一大本厚厚的、写满细节的本子，简直就像一本《圣经》。我们花了很多时间探索如何顺畅地沟通。

　　实际上你在俄罗斯待了多久？

　　我们花了一年多的时间做这个项目。我在莫斯科待了一整个月，我的助理逗留了两个月。我有很多朋友曾经在那里工作过，他们跟我说，“莫斯科大剧院很好”，还有“啊，过程不太容易呀”。莫斯科大剧院有很多具有吸引力的东西：他们的工作风格截然不同，但非常开放。他们很专业，同时也很死板。他们必须按照预算施工，但细节上又绝不苟且。他们不太盘算利弊，凡事处之泰然，但当我们表示某些细节需要花更多功夫时，他们又乐意提供帮助。一开始筹备《罗恩格林》，基本上是我们的团队带头，大都会团队在场辅助并观察工序的每一步，准备好之后在纽约搬演时所需的细节。

　　你指的是如何把整个构思移师至大都会，而不是实质的布景与服装，对吗？

　　对，是构思。一方面我们需要从后勤方面考虑，另一方面我们也明白两地观众的审美是不一样的。有机会在莫斯科大剧院工作，我觉得很荣幸。剧院位于市中心，周边都是餐厅，我感觉简直就像在世界的中心一样。但大部分俄罗斯人并不是天天看歌剧。我周边的人素质很高，他们会聚在一起探索新事物，所以这次体验很集中，但又很不一样。他们的行为举止不一样，他们的艺术方针也不一样，但他们能成功地把全球最显赫的制作搬上莫斯科大剧院的舞台。我们的构思肯定不同于他们的常规制作。

　　你跟弗朗索瓦的构思是怎样设想的？

　　首先，我们享受百分百的创作自由，我俩的干劲也旗鼓相当。有时候我们从罗恩格林身上获取灵感，有时候是从埃尔莎（Elsa），但我认为这都源自瓦格纳的原创思维。这两个故事中的人物在道德层面改变了方向，带来了悲剧。两人充满疑问，却从未找到过答案。有时候，我觉得这些剧情更接近印度文化：人们每天的生活都问题重重，必须不停地调整才能保住自己，时时刻刻都不能停下来。你永远都站在另一边，彼岸的诱惑却要你转回头，毕生只可回头看。所以弗朗索瓦与我一开始用的是一个抽象、强大的设计手法，然后才把人性放进去。

大都会歌剧院新制作的《罗恩格林》剧照

　　莫斯科大剧院首演当晚也正是俄乌冲突爆发的那天。当时的情况又如何？

　　首演相当成功，但也令人伤悲。我们听说外面有事发生，但并不知道那么严重。起码我们希望不太严重。当时我们满脑子只有歌剧制作。当舞者们走进剧院，我开始感觉事态不妙。不同背景的人有着截然不同的反应。当我们终于有机会跟编舞交谈，他真的很担心那些舞者，也尽其所能让演员不分心。可是，当更多人走进后台，每个人都听说外面发生了什么，当然会受到困扰。首演过后我们举行了盛大的庆功宴，大家都在感谢我们所做的一切。突然间，我接到从伦敦打来的电话，告诉我们当晚就需要离开莫斯科。尽管事发突然，但我必须感谢莫斯科的每一个人。他们都很照顾我，他们都很棒。

　　你提及早年的经验，银幕上流动般的戏服也可与舞蹈相比。那么，西方歌剧呢？

　　演出就是一种能量的交流：台下的观众接收舞台上发生的一切。他们不只靠理性理解，有时候是通过感官感觉。当中的差异我觉得很重要，因为我的作品往往聚焦于内在的感受，而并非外在的解说。我想构造一个存在于潜意识的另类世界；从很多方面来说，那个世界比我们周围的实体世界更真实、更富感情、更体贴。当观众欣赏舞蹈演出时，他们不只是用眼睛来看，他们的整个身体都被唤醒了。而服装只是我们躯体的延续：看着舞者的动作，你可以看出故事情节的发展；服装让故事更加视觉化，让人物处境与心理状态更富诗意，让观众更好地了解内容并感受其中。你看过我跟阿库·汉姆（Akram Khan）以及其他编舞家合作的作品，你会发现我的构思很简单，因为人体其实很复杂。要想清楚地看到人体舞动，就不可能把大量衣服盖在演员身上。你要让身体把故事说出来。我花了7年时间去研究不同文化的身体语言，发掘不同种族特定的形体范本或动作模式。

　　你是指正式的研究吗？是在大学还是研究所里？

　　没有。我曾经到处寻觅，但当年还没有人研究出成熟的、可行的方案。不过我确实想方设法独立采访了一些教授。我的首段电影生涯于1993年暂告一段落，然后我去了中国台湾，在那里探索人体律动，跟形体艺术家一起工作，比如云门舞集、当代传奇剧场、优人神鼓等--他们的风格迥然不同。我也进行了深入的、全球性的戏剧研究，探索声音与动作如何影响戏剧含义。这些议题很早就在我的脑海中，所以每当我发现新事物，我便尝试吸收新知识与新感觉。

1996 年格拉兹歌剧院《罗生门》剧照

1997 年格拉兹歌剧院《特里斯坦与伊索尔德》剧照

　　《罗恩格林》不是中国题材，也不是你的首部瓦格纳歌剧制作。你刚才描述舞蹈作品的创作过程跟歌剧相似吗？

　　不，工序不同。中国文化很复杂，要把故事搬上舞台，你只能做大量的简化。我的工作是探讨深层意义，并让它能浮出水面。每当我成功地连接文化核心，我想我为世界福祉做出了一点贡献。德国文化与中国文化有点相似，尤其是蕴藏于文化中的能量，可以推动实体世界。但是德国人要比中国人的哲学思维更抽象：你经常遇上两种不同的动力碰撞一起，让你的认知更上一层楼。

　　1996年，我首次在德奥文化环境下工作，也是我首次参与国际歌剧制作。当年，奥地利格拉茨歌剧院（适逢施蒂利亚秋天艺术节）首演旅德日本作曲家久保摩耶子（Mayako Kubo）谱写的《罗生门》（Rashomon），与黑泽明同名电影源自同一个故事。制作由林怀民导演，李名觉负责舞美，我负责服装。那是一个传统的日本故事，但是在当时的格拉茨，他们不太理解日本与中国之间的文化差别。因此，我也要从零开始解释中日文化的差异--我必须说，格拉茨歌剧院的人员很优秀。相比之下，维也纳歌剧院就保守得多。一年后，我被邀请重返格拉茨参与《特里斯坦与伊索尔德》的制作，导演是卢茨·格拉夫（Lutz Graf），舞美设计是很杰出的安德拉斯·岩德尔（Andreas Jander）。导演十分认真，他特意飞到台湾跟我一起讨论工作。

　　整个“导演主导剧场”（regietheater）的诞生基本上是因为瓦格纳，为了淡化从前那些令人讨厌的元素，导演们都在拼命寻找新的艺术元素。那你为《特里斯坦与伊索尔德》带来了什么？

　　瓦格纳的世界缔造了一个偌大的空间，让音乐、歌唱、戏剧与视觉元素可以融在一起。瓦格纳不单是一位作曲家，他还创造了表演艺术的新品种。他的音乐当然是抽象的，跟普通的叙事形式刚好反过来（大笑）。通常在歌剧范畴里，焦点会侧重于情节上，可瓦格纳的歌剧更像一场音乐会--不是惯常的音乐会，而是神仙与凡人的复杂故事，那些神仙更活在凡人的躯体里。所以音乐的动力不停地往前推进，奋勇向前。

　　无论是瓦格纳的《罗恩格林》还是昆曲《长生殿》（我在香港看过你的制作），往往让观众更有期望。当你构思新制作时，有没有特别的考虑？

　　我们讲述古老的故事时，从来都不会全盘托出，而是只选某些精粹。另外，天天都会有新作品面世，如果一部旧作品到了现今还能上演，它必定富有含金量。我们重温经典，必须寻找它本质上的意义和价值，以及与现今社会的关联。介于这两者间的间隙正好就是我的“空间”，在那里我可以创作，可以放进我所知道的一切。重温经典很是重要，因为我们大多被眼下的“此时此地”所困。如果我们只能用今天的眼光看待艺术，那就没办法去衡量什么是重要的了。经典作品让我们用不同的角度去审视事物。如果新旧制作都具有同样的高质量，把它们放在一起，我们从中可以获得完全不同的认知。

　　故事源自真实生活或是荒诞神话，对你来说有没有区别？

　　两者我都经常涉足，但我觉得本质上它们都是一样的。看起来真实的事物不一定真实。当你诉说故事时，你会用自己的语言和自己的描述方式。在演出过程中，观众活在其中，各自从中领略作品的意义。在商业世界里，你尤其需要关注市场，顾及购票者的喜好。但我认为那是绝对错误的。因为我们生活的世界有很多假象，你的经历已经带有虚构成分。如果有人相信一切都是真实的，那就太悲惨了。艺术的存在就是提醒我们要探索假象，把它立体化。

　　所以周润发在亚热带地区的炎夏穿上黑风衣并不现实，但却传达出更伟大的真谛。

　　是的，那是种内在的动力。你可以感受到。

　　你曾跟最主流的电影人合作，也曾与最中坚的舞台艺术家合作。你的合作伙伴也包括了赖声川（舞台艺术家，曾拍摄得奖电影）与弗朗索瓦·吉拉尔（电影导演，现也执导舞台制作）。不同的艺术媒介讲故事的方式有什么差异，这样影响你的工作吗？

　　事实上，这个问题很有趣，因为赖声川与弗朗索瓦拥有他们独特的游走于不同领域的方法，我也有游走属于自己频道的方式。如果你只是一个舞台或电影专才，那么整个世界都不一样，说的笑话都截然不同。不但路途不一样，过程不一样，他们的生活方式也不一样。拍电影的时候，大伙一起生活、一起吃饭、一起抽烟，因为制作的细节天天都有变动：我们时时刻刻都要解决不停涌现的各种问题。你没有时间做任何大的调整，因为明天就要开镜拍摄。什么“高概念电影”面对当前的最后期限都变得没用（大笑）。我跟吴宇森一起拍《赤壁》时，从很多专家的学术研究中总结出重设历史时代的厅房是怎么样的。但是，把这个放在电影拍摄的环境下，这一切就像陈腔滥调，是一个没人看得懂的老笑话。制作一部电影，你必须用有限的预算再现故事中的整个世界。因此，你最终不得不舍弃很多不清晰的元素。

　　在舞台上你不必复制整个世界。还有，排演《罗恩格林》的时候，你不需要跟整个团队一起生活，尽管你在莫斯科待了一段时间。那么，弗朗索瓦领导《罗恩格林》团队时，是像一位电影导演还是舞台导演？

　　弗朗索瓦有强烈的视觉感。他是一位富有视觉要求的导演。我觉得他能感受到瓦格纳的力量，那种极大的超级力量（大笑）。弗朗索瓦懂得如何建构能量，但他花了最多的时间在谈论音乐与故事情节上。在《罗恩格林》里，角色之间关系复杂，情节发展的维度也因应不同状况而变化。当你认真研究瓦格纳并花大量时间学习这部歌剧之后，你就有把握处理整个制作。最重要的是控制瓦格纳音乐内藏的能量，因为他已经把那些能量分配给不同角色。我的第一部瓦格纳比较简单，只有两个人：特里斯坦与伊索尔德（大笑）。所以这一次参与《罗恩格林》，我知道先要把很多细节去掉，因为稍后又肯定要把细节复原。我们会在能量之中找到色彩。

　　你参与过很多不同项目，担任过很多不同的职位：服装设计、舞美设计，甚至整套作品的全面视觉概念。哪一个职位让你感到最舒坦？

　　我喜欢跟其他人一起工作。但是，我的确有很多话想说，我也不爱出风头或勉强他人。我尝试了解周边的世界及围绕着我那些流动的能量，致力发掘自己的内涵。最重要的是，我希望可以帮助别人，尤其让他们促进了解事物。这些年来，我奠定了自己的工作风格：某些东西可以弹性处理，某些丝毫不能改动--其实很难找到这条界线，同时又要对最佳选择保持高度敏感。作为艺术家，如果你改变主意你有可能会一败涂地，因为你不再相信自己。当你获得成功，当你找到什么是适合自己的，你就可以往前走。你必须相信自己。

　　谈谈你心目中的理想工作环境吧。

　　你知道吗？有时候你宁愿有更多的资源，身边有更多了解你的伙伴。有时候，你一看他们的身体语言，就知道他们的想法。对我来说，首要是找到能量的源头--可以是我喜欢的人，或者是能量强大的人。而他们对我的作品要有所回应。当我做得好，他们也会感觉良好。如果有人问我：“你是怎么做到的？”我真的会很感动。

　　Tim Yip has long set the scene for other people‘s conflicts， from the flaming destruction of the Jia mansion in Bright Sheng’s opera Dream of the Red Chamber to the flying bamboo-grove swordfights in the film Crouching Tiger， Hidden Dragon， which earned the veteran designer an Oscar for Best Art Direction in 2001. But personally his most dramatic moment came a year ago at Moscow‘s Bolshoi Theatre， when the world premiere of Franois Girard’s Lohengrin featuring Yip‘s sets and costumes became vividly outmaneuvered by offstage events. During a post-performance reception celebrating this landmark alliance between the Bolshoi and New York’s Metropolitan Opera， word quickly spread that Vladimir Putin had just invaded Ukraine and the visiting production team needed to leave the country immediately.

歌剧《红楼梦》剧照

叶锦添为歌剧《红楼梦》设计的服饰图

　　For Yip，who has been based in London since the pandemic，that also meant spending much of the past year in New York，where the Met (anticipating problems in communication and transportation) quickly cancelled the Bolshoi partnership and commissioned all new sets and costumes. For Girard，Lohengrin was a belated follow-up to his thoughtfully surreal，post-apocalyptic Parsifal from 2013，where Met audiences were nearly as intrigued by the imagery as they were with its stellar cast (headed by tenor Jonas Kaufmann). For Yip，Lohengrin was a belated opportunity to collaborate with the French-Canadian Girard，who shares a similar love for the big image.

　　Yip‘s debut at the Metropolitan Opera comes after last summer’s revival of Dream of the Red Chamber at San Francisco Opera and concurrently with a rerelease of Crouching Tiger，newly restored in 4K and screening in US cinemas nationwide. In between his other projects，including an exhibition of Chinese ritual bronzes for the Minneapolis Institute of Art and his “semi-documentary”art film Love Infinity，Yip was lured by a pot of Cantonese soup into discussing his wide-ranging career，from his early days creating many of Hong Kong cinema‘s most iconic images to his recent thoughts about Wagner，in whose characters he finds a perpetual，quasi-Buddhist quest for understanding similar to his own.  

叶锦添与李安合作的电影《卧虎藏龙》，体现了叶锦添对中国古典美学的追求

　　Some people tell stories in words or music. You tell stories in images，both still and moving. How did you get started in this？

　　I have multiple layers of beginnings. I first wanted to be a painter，but my brother was a photographer and had a lot of equipment. He’d meet and work with all these beautiful people， so when I was a student this was what I‘d dream about：taking photographs like him. So I got interested in studio photography，with professional lighting，but also documentary photography. I was doing many things-sometimes photography，sometimes painting，sometimes design-and entered many competitions in Hong Kong. Once when I won the Gold Prize in a design competition the film director Tsui Hark had someone there scouting for young talent for his Film Workshop. We talked about many different projects，but none of them were really mature. He finally introduced me to a new film by John Woo called A Better Tomorrow. No one thought it would be very big.

　　So you were the one responsible for Chow Yun Fat’s black trench coat？

　　John Woo had been the assistant to a very famous kung fu master director，Chang Cheh. That genre is like westerns in that there‘s a hero，and it focuses on themes of friendship. People will do anything for their friends. This was deep in John Woo’s mind. He always has this idea of personal devotion that reaches back to ancient China. Tsui Hark wanted to make a Triad society film，influenced by movies like The Godfather. But John Woo wanted a more romantic film，so you can see that some of the clothes I did reflect ancient times. The way the black coat flows in the wind， for example，is all part of the ancient aesthetics of a hero，just like a kung fu movie.

　　The film critic and scholar David Bordwell once told me that Hollywood copied all the wrong things from John Woo. He said， “It‘s not about the camera following the bullet， it’s about finding out where the bullet comes from.” 

　　Yes， he has a very romantic vision.

　　How much did that first project shape your whole career？ 

　　It was directly related to my later dance projects：how the costumes fit and move with the body. That becomes part of the message. The whole world seemed to become inspired by this，but I had been there for a long time. Ancient Chinese beauty is not based only on the ground level. People are always thinking in the air. They can step on leaves. The highest level of this aesthetic was in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon，which also starred Chow Yun Fat. I was responsible for creating his two most important images.

　　Jumping to Lohengrin now，when were you first invited to join the project？

　　I was already good friends with the director Franois Girard. We were supposed to do a Cirque de Soleil-type show in China，but something changed and they went with Franco Dragone instead. But Franois and I found we had had many things in common and really wanted to work together，so when Lohengrin came up several years later he called and said，“Finally…”

　　You initially put the production together for the Bolshoi Theatre in Moscow. How was that working process？

　　It was complicated. First of all，it was during Covid，and they seemed to be quite serious about protocols. Even in Zoom meetings，I saw their staff were all wearing masks. It was the first time I‘d ever worked in Russia. I’d been invited to do installations， but none of them have happened yet. This was also the first time that the Metropolitan Opera and the Bolshoi had ever worked together. The Bolshoi got to do the premiere， so we were doing all the key work there first， with the Met people following us around. Since none of us had ever worked together， and we were not able to be physically there all the time， we assembled a whole book of details，practically a Bible. We spent a lot of time just trying to figure out how to communicate.

　　How long were you actually in Russia？

　　We spent over a year working on the project. Physically I was in Moscow for a month and my assistant for two months. Many of my friends have worked there and I‘ve heard，“They’re really good，”and“Oh， it‘s not that easy.”There were so many attractive things there. Their working stye was rather different，but very open. They were very professional，but at the same time not flexible. They had a budget to fulfill，but were very focused about making things work. They were not so calculated，very relaxed actually. But when we expressed that we needed more work on certain things，they were very helpful. When the work started，it was basically our crew in the lead，with the Met on site giving some support and watching at every step to see how they could transfer it to New York later.

　　I assume you mean transferring the concepts rather than the actual sets and costumes. 

　　Yes，the concept. Their presence was largely logistical，but it also helped remind us that we’d need to keep different audience in mind later. Working at the Bolshoi was a great experience. The venue is in a very important location，with many restaurants，and I felt I was at the center of the world. Most Russian people are not looking at opera every day，I think. I was surrounded by people of a very high level，always gathering there to explore new things. So it was quite concentrated，but very different. Their way of acting is different，their artistic approach is different. But they also have the ability to bring the best productions in the world. Our concept is certainly different from most Bolshoi productions.

　　What were you and Franois aiming for ？ 

　　First of all，we had total freedom. Franois and I have a similar energy. Sometimes we find that energy in Lohengrin，sometimes in Elsa， but it‘s all related to Wagner’s original thought， I think. They have a turn in moral direction，which brings tragedy. They‘re full of questions but never find answers. Sometimes I feel this is almost Indian，where you have so many questions in daily life and are constantly evolving yourself to be good. You can never stop anywhere. You’re always on the other side and all this temptation turns you back. The main work of your life is always to go back. So Franois and I started with something abstract， very strong， then inject a certain humanity.

　　Your opening night came on the same evening as Vladimir Putin‘s invasion of Ukraine. What happened to you during that time？

　　We had a quite successful opening，but it was quite tragic. We had known something was happening，but didn’t think it was serious. At least we hoped it wasn‘t. We were too focused on the work. But once the dancers started coming in，I could feel a big difference. Something was going on，and people of different backgrounds were having very different reactions. We finally had a chance to talk with the choreographer and he was really worried about his dancers. He too tried to keep everyone focused，but as more and more people came in， everyone was listening to what was going on and everyone was affected. On opening night，we had a big celebration afterwards where everyone thanked us for what we did. Then we got this call from London，telling us we had to leave immediately that night. But I must say， everyone there took very good care of me. They were wonderful people.

　　You were talking about your earliest experiences， how the movement of clothing in film translated to dance. Did that also work in Western opera？

　　Performances have a kind of an energy exchange：the audience sitting there receives what happens on stage. Not always through knowledge，sometimes it comes through feeling. That difference is important to me，since my work always concentrates on inner feeling rather than exterior explanation. So I want to create an alternative world on a subconscious level that is，in many ways，more real，more emotional，more sensitive than the actual physical world. Audiences watch dancers not only with their eyes；their whole body is awakened. Costumes are just an extension of the body. You should be able to follow the whole story on stage just from watching the bodies. The costumes help visualize the story，the situation， the emotional state of the characters in a poetic way to let people feel it. So in my work with Akram Khan and others you find my concept is quite simple，because the body is quite complicated. To see the movement clearly，you can’t really cover it up. You really have to let the body tell the story. I spent seven years researching body movements in different cultures， why certain people have clear patterns of movement with their bodies.

　　Do you mean formal research？ At a university or institution？

　　No. I did look for something like that，but no one at that time had such a mature approach to the subject. I did manage to interview some professors independently，though. I‘d worked in movies until 1993，then went to Taiwan，where I started working with bodies： Cloud Gate Dance Theatre，Contemporary Legend Theatre，U Theatre-all of which are very，very different. And during this time I did in-depth research into the whole dramatic world，how sound and movement affect meaning. This had already been on my mind，so whenever I saw something new I tried to absorb both the knowledge and the feeling.

　　Lohengrin isn’t Chinese. It‘s not even your first Wagner opera. Is your working process in Western opera similar to what you described with dance？ 

　　No， it’s a different process. Chinese culture is complicated，so on stage you have to simplify a lot. I work to explore those depths and bring them to the surface. If I can succeed in connecting with that core，I think I can benefit the whole world. German culture is quite similar to Chinese culture，particularly in the way energy pushes the physical world. But the Germans are much more abstract，and you always tend to have two different ideas pushing together to raise your understanding to a higher level. My first experience working with Germanic culture was also my first experience with international opera. In 1996，the Bühnen Graz Opera House was doing Rashomon，a new opera based on Kurosawa‘s film，directed by Lin Hwai-min with set designs by Ming Cho Lee. It’s a Japanese story，but in Graz they didn‘t see any difference between Japan and China at that time. So I was teaching them which was which-and I have to say，Graz was a really open about this. In Vienna，the opera house is much more traditional. The next year，I was invited back to do Tristan und Isolde， directed by Lutz Graf with a very good stage designer，Andreas Jander. The director was very serious and flew to Taiwan to spend time with me.

　　The whole tradition of regietheater (“director’s theater”) basically emerged because of Wagner， to downplay the unsavoury elements of tradition. Since they always look for new elements， what did you bring to Tristan？

　　Wagner‘s world is already about creating a space where music，singing，theater and visual elements all come together. Wagner wasn’t just a composer. His work was a new form of creation. His music was certainly going for abstraction，the opposite of how most people tell a story [laughing]. Opera usually focuses more on the actual story，but Wagner‘s is more like a concert-not even a normal concert，but a complicated story of gods and humans，where the gods are actually inside the humans. You have this energy constantly and aggressively pushing forward.

　　Whether you’re doing Wagner‘s Lohengrin or a kun opera like Palace of Eternal Youth (which I saw in Hong Kong)， classics often raise expectations in the audience. Does that play a part on you as the visual creator of a new production？ 

　　Whenever we tell old stories， it’s never the whole story. It‘s very select. Also， so many new works come out all the time that if an old work is still around there must be something important in it. Whenever we return to a classic we have to find the original value from its time， but also how it relates to our time. The gap between the two is my playroom，where I can create and put what I know. Revisiting the classics is really important，because we tend to get trapped in our environment. We’ll never know if something is important or not if we only see what‘s in our time. A classic will take you out of that. If both the old and new are of the same quality，putting them together can offer an entirely different kind of knowledge.

1996年奥地利格拉兹歌剧院《罗生门》剧照

　　Does it make a difference if a story happens to be literal or a more fanciful legend？ 

　　I do a lot of both，but I think they’re essentially the same. What looks realistic is not actually realistic. In telling the story，you still have your own language， your own description. Then it‘s experienced and determined by the audience. In the commercial world，you particularly have to follow the market and respond to what people like. I think this is totally wrong. Because living in the real world is not really real，you’re already experiencing something fake. To believe that this is real is truly tragic. Art is there to remind us of this，and to explore this fakeness and turn it into three dimensions.

　　You mean that Chow Yun Fat wearing a black trench coat in tropical heat is not realistic，but it conveys a greater truth？ The inner energy， yes. You can feel it.

1997年格拉兹歌剧院《特里斯坦与伊索尔德》剧照

　　You‘ve worked with hardcore film people and hardcore stage people，yet you’ve also collaborated with Stan Lai (a stage person with successful films) and Franois (a filmmaker who‘s worked on stage). Do these people tell their stories differently， and how does that affect what you do？ 

　　Actually this is interesting，because Stan and Franois both have their own way of traveling in different places， and I also travel in my own channel. If you’re just a stage or film person，it‘s a totally different world. They don’t even have the same jokes. It‘s not just a different journey and a different process，their entire way of living is different. In film， we practically have to live together and eat together， smoking a lot，because elements of the production are always changing. We’re solving problems all the time. They have no time for you to make big changes because they have to shoot tomorrow. Having a “high concept” is no use when you‘re on an immediate deadline [laughing]. When I was making Red Cliff with John Woo，I found all this scholarly information from specialists about exactly how a living room at that time would look. But when you put it all in a different context it’s like an old joke that nobody understands anymore. Making a movie，you have to reproduce an entire world with a limited budget-and you end up having to distill a lot of things that aren‘t clear.

叶锦添为大都会歌剧院新制作的《罗恩格林》设计的舞美草图

　　On stage you certainly don’t have to recreate the whole world. And you didn‘t exactly live with the whole team with Lohengrin， despite your time together in Moscow. So did Franois run Lohengrin like a film director or a stage director？

　　Franois has many strong visual demands. He’s a very visual director and I think he feels the power of Wagner，the extreme superpower [laughing]. Franois is also into energy-building，but he actually spends most of this time talking about the music and the story. There are complicated relationships between characters，many dimensions that shift in different situations. After studying Wagner and spending time with the work you start to know how to handle it. The most important thing is to handle the energy in Wagner‘s music，because he’s already separated that force into different characters. My first Wagner was easy，just two characters：Tristan and Isolde [laughing]. So with Lohengrin，I knew enough to strip away the details，because we would all be adding our own details later. We would find the colors in the energy.

　　You‘ve had different credits on different projects，ranging from costumes to set design to entire visual concepts. Where do you feel most comfortable？ 

　　I like to collaborate with people. At the same time，I have a lot to say，and I don’t want to be pushing or forcing anything. I pay attention to my inner development as I try to understand the world and the flow of energy around me. Most of all，I want to help people， particularly in their understanding. Through the years，I‘ve developed a certain working style：some things are flexible，some things cannot be changed-and it’s really difficult to find this line，to remain sensitive to what is your best option. As an artist，when you change your mind you can fall very fast because you may not believe in yourself anymore. But once you achieve some success，once you find what‘s right for you，then you can go forward. You have to believe in yourself.

　　What is your ideal working environment？

　　You know，sometimes you prefer a situation where you have more resources and more people who understand you. Sometimes you can tell from a physical reaction. But for me，the first priority is to find a real source of energy. It might be someone I like，or some people who are so powerful. And they have to respond well to my work，so that when I do something really good，these people can also feel it. I’m really touched when anyone asks me这“How did you do that？”

　　*原文刊登于《歌剧》杂志2023年3月刊。作为中国唯一的经典歌剧艺术月刊，《歌剧》至今已创刊30余年。