Gao Minglu: Have you had your works exhibited intensively formerly?

　　Li Zhanyang:I have participated in large-scale exhibition twice before. One is “Door of Century”, and the other one is “Chengdu Double Annual Exhibition”. But there were many artists to exhibit their works together in both of these two exhibitions. What’s more, I just had a part of my works exhibited. To exhibit all my works in a particular exhibition----That’s my ideal all the time. Now, my dream has come true. Because of the confinement of the place where I live, I have few opportunities to take part in these exhibitions. Unless Mr Gao had invited me this time, I couldn’t have shown my works to the spectators of Beijing. I really want to get my works come to contact with the public directly as this time, without advertising propaganda and theory guidance, and they can appreciate the works in the light of their own interest. This is a Lydian stone of art. In the past, I had some sculptures exhibited in the gallery, and most of spectators were coteries that were major in sculpture. Therefore, we don’t know the public’s real evaluation. Of course, some works needn’t appeal to the public. But because the common people are often shown in my works, I’d like to meet them. I lived in the low hierarchy of the society during my childhood, and there were the most common people around me. I learnt painting in the Children’s Palace when I was only 10 years old and my family was in a town near the city.

　　Gao Minglu: Where were you at that time? In the northwest of China?

　　Li Zhanyang: In Changchun. My family was not far away Changchun, only 30 kilometers. But I had to go to school by train at that time because of inconvenient traffic. Moreover, the train was very slow and crowded. I always struggled to the train with the people who lived in the town but worked in the city everyday. According to the rules of the school, we finished the courses at half past four. When classes were over, the whole teaching building would be closed, and none was allowed to stay inside it. I had to stay at the railway station, and the train of backward stroke was forty past seven. During this time, the environment of the station was so dirty that I felt very bored. I was helpless and was only used to waiting. There was only one interesting thing that I could watch all kinds of people. When I was very young, I was forced to form the habit of observing everybody, because you had nothing to do but observe those people and this colorful world. After a long time, I could distinguish their identities basically. For example, hookers began to appear in the society, I could recognize them from many people. In the 1980s, most of hookers did business deal secretly. A period of time, they were very rampant. If you also observe the railway station often, you would find it is a rummy world. Why did that fat lady walk around and strike up a conversation with someone suddenly? She didn’t know that man at first obviously, but later they seemed to know each other well. They must have done a business deal. Sometimes, I followed their tracks because of nonsense and curiosity. When they walked into a small alley, they disappeared immediately. What’s more, I could also recognize peddlers, cheaters, thieves and so on.

　　Gao Minglu: Did you make some sculptures at that time?

　　Li Zhanyang: No. I hadn’t learnt sculpture at that time, and I just drew scenic paintings that included all sorts of people going to market. When I was 13 years old, I began to draw this kind of painting, and I'd love to. There was a painting named "Qing Ming Shang He Tu" drawn by Zhang Zeduan, on the calendar hanged on the wall of my family. It moved me deeply. I always had the painting unfolded on the heatable brick bed and observed it from the beginning to the end carefully. The painter formed such a whole grand, vivid and interesting painting with many complicated details and stories. That's the first time to describe a grand scene and record a long history through a painting. We can find the trace of that period from it. You can also discover new details after watching it every time, so you will not mind watching it again and again. Although its expression was not perfect, it described the living behaviors at that time. We could know how the people in Song Dynasty lived indirectly. It contributed to recording history. The difference between the other ten artists and me is that I am not preferable to draw some ideogenetic paintings but the on-the-spot recording ones. I just want to describe the living of the most common people in the society. Because of different restrictions, there is still a distance between the reality and my paintings. I will try my best to shorten the distance between the reality and art, and describe the reality by sculptures. I want to put many grand scenes that show all-inclusive lives in this world in front of the spectators through my own expressive means. Then I want to know the people's real evaluation to me, so I am staying there all the time these days. There are many spectators and many different evaluations. All of them are really very interesting. There is a mentionable thing that one housewife surprised me. She came here every day and asked me if it could expand time. I answered her that it's not up to me. She said she could help me to contact with Sociology Department of Beijing University, and I could exhibit my works there.

　　Gao Minglu: Where do you want to exhibit your works?

　　Li Zhanyang: I wish to have my works exhibited in the public, not just in the coterie. The public's views are also very important. That day, Ou Yangjianghe asked each artist to write down a sentence that they wanted to say. I wrote down a sentence---I long for combining with the public, and I have combined with them. Although it was a little exaggerated, I wanted to emphasize such a combination between the spectators and the works of art. In the past, I didn't know if they agreed to my opinion. Actually, it's subordinate that all the people agree with me. It’s much more important that the modern art works should been shown to the public, more hierarchies of this society. We needn’t say that art serves the people, but we should spur the public to contact with the modern art. This exhibition can be a good precedent. In the future, there will be more and larger-scale exhibitions. Maybe we will have some uncanny tentative plans, for instance, we hold the exhibitions in the rural areas or in much lower hierarchy including much more people. If can, which way should we choose to scheme. Of course, we should need more opportunities, time and close attention of people.

　　Gao Minglu: Through which way do you give expression to your particular connotation of the works?

　　Li Zhanyang: I express outwardness by true-life style.

　　Gao Minglu: As we know, this is an old topic. Outwardness, what’s its meaning? It has something to do with visual angle. For example, what do you want to express? Which slice-of-life do you want to express? Which hierarchy of the society do you want to express? We met some problems in the exhibition. For example, there were a few acute and contradictory scenes. Some persons in upper hierarchy might think they show the seamy side of this society. Dace-halls, the government just should attack them that conceal many crimes. According to the forepassed ideology, art serves politics. Now we put aside this superficial problem, and there is still a question how you can manage to organize such a lineup through your own way suitably. On composition of a picture, which kind of people do you choose? Which story? Which slice-of-life? How to filter? For example, we can come back to use the traditional folk means. I grew up in Tianjin when I was a child. The famous Plasticine Zhang from Tianjin, who could knead many kinds of interesting persons by plasticine, was also a folk. The stuffed dummies in his “the marriage of Zhong kui’s sister” were very vivid. Mr. Zhang had his own special expressive method----How to choose the material? How to organize? How to strengthen dramaticism? How to express the truth vividly? Will you create the works in the light of traditional steps of making sculpture or let it have its swing?

　　Li Zhanyang: I will choose the latter one. If somebody asks how to classify me, I can make a statement of the theory systematically, but I think little when I make the works actually. Before creating the works, I almost have no rough plan and no fixed style. I will do it as soon as I get it. Of course, there is an invert process. When we were in school, we often learned basic training and drawing from nature combining with the classical forms of monomeric sculpture Egyptian sculptures, which emphasized the structure of entirety and neglected the feeling of the characters. There are many sculptures in the ancient Chinese grottos jointing with tradition, which searches in-house sculpture and explores other sculpture forms a lot. After a long time, I can’t get a bang out of all this. The technique of Plasticine Zhang is different with what we learned from our school that needn’t pursuit the details and plots of sculptures. The old idea was that many details wouldn’t make the sculpture grand and magnificent. They seemed the works of Mr. Zhang as “a little piece of joy”. I think both of these two ideas are rational, because each has his likes and dislikes. My works can’t put out the orgiastic and ebullient atmosphere without these “little pieces of joy”. Egyptian sculptures show another kind of atmosphere---monolithic and religious. The works have something to do with the artists’ different feelings, different periods, and different backgrounds. Which form will we choose is a technical question. All that we learned---the Chinese sculptures, the foreign ones, the ancient ones and the modern ones, are our groundwork. In my works, sometimes, I use the forms of the painted sculptures in old temples; sometimes, I am much affected by the great master of expressionism, such as Frenchman Raymond. Techniques seem to be Wu Shu. You learn many skills of kung fu, but you won’t know which kind of skill to use when you need them. You may choose a convenient and easy kind to use. The pivotal question is how to set up your individual angle of view. Which kind of vision will you choose to observe the truth of this world. My works represent my angle of view. I am a eyewitness of life in this world. The content of my works hold the mirror up to nature. For example, “Vista No.2” is true, reflecting a drastic fight in the restaurant in which I was having lunch at that time. The scene was in a complete mess---some people were running for it; some people were sobering---it was an interesting multi-ply compounding as a stream of consciousness and had mussy mobility. It gave us irritation and illusion, but it came to an end immediately. At last, the policemen came here to ask several questions in detail and left. We all knew that they couldn’t solve the problem. I live in this place called Huangjueping. The law and order of this place is not good. I saw somebody even teenage students take drugs with my own eyes several times. What surprised me was that they injected drugs in the toilet of school. They were just in the teenage, how could they do in the future life?

　　Gao Minglu: So I felt there is not a thing as a monument in your mind. The sculptures you did were a set of, a group of vivid ones in an accident happened in a certain time. Your sculptures were used to record history. They were not single and still monuments centralized and solidified in the foundation bed but flowing and dramatic characters in the real fields. Is that right?

　　Li Zhanyang: Maybe it has something to do with the angle of my view. For example, there are three persons sitting in this long corridor now, and Teacher Gao is a Ph.D., the opposite old grandpa is a peasant. In my opinion, both of you are existing in the same environment, so you are equal now. If you force to separate them and set up a monument for adoring and prostrating you, which is meaningless. At the very least, it is far away from what I concern. What I concern is the changing things around us. I choose characters regardless of their positions in this society, just according to the angle of my view. I want to pursuit a flowing and true situation. China has a large population, and wherever you go, you can see a lot of persons. People’s desire is expanding all the time. There are places of entertainment everywhere. Many persons live in a luxury and dissipation life. They use the abreaction to fill in the gap of their emptiness, which give me a particular angle of view formed by many interesting and changeable individuals. In my works, I don’t make my sculptures as immutable and imposing monuments and I’d like to make some sculptures that are not immutable and imposing showing the common people’s living situation. Maybe I love to grab every moment and to display the persons in low hierarchy. I observe the whole baffling world as a camera shot. What I see is probably dreamlike, illusive and momentary, not eternal. Most of my works cause mental stimulation because I am an eyewitness of these scenes. One day, I had dinner in a hotel near Asian Village. There were some policemen catching the fakers, and pressed the fakers to the ground, beating and kicking them. I felt they were fulsome and wanted to help them very much, but I hadn’t enough courage. If I helped them, the policemen might catch me altogether. So what Lu Xun who is a great author in China said was right, “ Scholars are the most powerless, they just can quarrel and scold.” The artists can’t solve the realistic problems also. If they can solve, they could be politicians or militarists. What we can do is to expose the reality of this world through artistic means.

　　Gao Minglu: So I can see seven affections and six desires of the public through your works. In the past, I drunk with Mongol fighting with bull and sheep, and they seemed to be uncivilized. But in my heart, I really appreciated their health, raciness and modesty, unlike the darkness and obscurity of the persons in high class.

　　Li Zhanyang: Darkness. The persons in low class have darkness too, but they have less obscurity. They are direct and vulgar.

　　Gao Minglu: They have their own healthy lives.

　　Li Zhanyang: It had no clear definition. It’s hard to say because some peasants are not virtuous. Why I can’t make the sculptures as monuments is that I must conclude and classify them. For example, he did a heroic thing at one time, is he a hero all the time? I see it’s not likely. Sometimes, a rogue might be a hero at a certain time. An unpretending man’ mind-set will change probably after a great social change. My abecedarian with the height of 1.8 meters is a virtuous, zealous, bold and unconstrained man. He affected me much and he was a worker in the past. Because he loves art, he was in charge of progaganda in his factory, then he was exchanged to work in the children’s hall. He didn’t win promotion because he had no diploma. He even hadn’t a suite of house when he retired. But at that time, he willingly bore the burden of hard works, and brought up a lot of excellent students. Later, China had all-round reform and opening-up, the children’s hall didn’t open to all the persons who love drawing. If you wanted to study there, you must have money and use back door connections to get an advantage. My teacher and his daughter began to profit under this environment. At last, his family became rich and his daughter’s husband was imprisoned because of taking drugs. My teacher changed a lot. He was more and more lowering, and I went to see him every time once I came back my hometown. I found he had become a different person and his mentality was distorted a lot. He was not kind to other people any more. Sometimes he hates people, even wanted to revenge somebody. Can you decide which kind of this person---my teacher is virtuous or evil-minded? He is both virtuous and evil-minded. He changed because of the environment he lived in and the crucifixion to him. I think the purpose of making sculpture is not to conclude and classify but come up with the realistic problems to make the persons think and understand. In brief, I want to speak out my attitude and opinions through my works and I don’t always think rationally. If time could stop and the persons at the moment could be solidified, that must have been a perfect scene of sculptures. It is a pity that they are all living souls, and they can’t be solidified.

　　Gao Minglu: Do you have a better plan about exhibition?

　　Li Zhanyang: I have a bold idea---if I have enough funds, I will make a grand scene that includes the whole street named Huangjueping where I am living now. This street is dirty and mussy but friendly and lovely. Because it’s my living place! I know it, and understand it very much. My thought is direct viewing and it’s easy for everyone to understand.

　　Gao Minglu: What’s your opinion about this exhibition?

　　Li Zhanyang: I think it’s very successful. Why did I say it was successful? Because you didn’t publicize this exhibition, but there were still a lot of spectators from different hierarchies in this society. This was an all-dimensional, multiple and wide-ranging opening exhibition. Most of the spectators were ordinary people. What’s more, the pattern of this exhibition was worth popularizing. The purpose of the government of Xixia was to push out their marketing brands through this art-exhibition, while our purpose was to popularize art to the public. They were different, even antipathic. But we held the exhibition successfully this time. It’s a marvelous success. We knew we couldn’t do it without the help of the government of Xixia. There were some wisdom and concession of the government and artists, and it came to the cooperation at last. I think it is a good opportunity of making art close to the public. I believe we will have more this kind of exhibitions, then more persons know the modern art.

　　Gao Minglu: How do you understand the relationship of the modern art and the public?

　　Li Zhanyang: In fact, the modern art hasn’t really come close to the public. Most of the achievers become famous overseas. Because their works are seen by the coterie first, then they are introduced by the coterie to the world and take part in many exhibitions. Their works are really seen by the public? It goes without saying. Moreover, the pattern of art doesn’t change all the time. In the past, it was “ideology”, while it is “Against Ideology” now. The works of art, movies, literatures that are introduced by the government always serve for the government and most of them are inauthentic. Now I think newspaper is also inauthentic. The programs on TV have no idea. All copy each other and almost have the same lines. So the persons don’t like to watch these programs. For example, a beautiful and tender lady acts a countrywoman artificially. I don’t like to watch it even if she is very beautiful because of unlikeness. The purposes of many television programs are to apple-polish the official. For an instance, some leaders ask the low level people to criticize them advisedly, the people suggest that the leaders don’t cherish their own health and should pay attention to having rest. Both of them are self-deceiving.

　　Gao Minglu: Slapping and tickling.

　　Li Zhanyang: That’s right. We will feel happy if we talk with each other frankly and sincerely. It’s tired for me to speak blarney. Now there are a lot of forms of art, letting the arts have free expression. It has both advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is advertising effectiveness. Whatever you do---the nonfigurative, the material, the ancient or the modern, you must have real situation. For example, you maybe have your mind disturbed when you see a beautiful girl---that’s our impulsion. It’s very precious. Nowadays, many reviewers give an extravagantly colorful description to some famous works, but I think the artists of these works didn’t think a lot actually at that time. Maybe just a piece of “real situation” makes them have impulsion of creation. Through the reviewers’ advertising effectiveness, the works become complicated. They will say that the artists create such excellent, perfect, world-famous works under an extraordinary situation like Falun Gong Cult. These works have surpassed their autologous value a lot such as Mola Nisa. It is said to be very sacred! In the Louvre, there were many people crowding to see this painting. I struggled to the front and see nothing because of dark light! Now, a lot of people are used to speculation. Because there are many speculations, a very common works is advertised to be a brand like some famous liquor, some nourishment and so. The common people believe them after a series of advertisements and buy them expensively. I think this kind of behaviors is very wicked. Honesty is still important for us. It’s fulsome to describe one ounce as ten ounces.