访谈计划：Alain Thibault

访谈视频Zoom会议室

2020年7月7日

 Q    我们了解到您的身份非常多元，您是声音艺术家、ELEKTRA国际数字艺术节及BIAN国际媒体艺术双年展艺术总监、总策展人，长久以来也一直致力于研究和发展数字艺术，能否请您简单介绍一下您的背景，又是什么吸引您进入到数字艺术研究领域？

我在大学里学习电子音乐作曲。在我还在攻读硕士学位的时候，我对我们要做的事情非常感兴趣。所以我开始和其他艺术家一起创作多媒体作品和表演，如果你愿意，可以和视觉艺术家合作，甚至可以创作歌剧。同时我也和很多机构进行合作。有时候，我真的很想让更多的人来听音乐会。所以我们表演是为了展示who you are，我们是谁。在那之后，我试着去接触电子艺术。主要是在欧洲，比如奥地利，因为这是最古老的，第一个这样去链接的地区。在这里电子艺术得到了扩展。因为我们的背景是音乐会，所以我们开始展示电子艺术表演，后来从电子艺术变成了数字艺术。有时候，我觉得有点无聊。我在这方面没有找到足够的创新，所以我创立了国际数字艺术双年展，BIAN，因为我发现艺术装置更具有创新性。第一届双年展是2012年，2020年是第五届。

《Light Society》

Aliya Orr&Sakchin Bessette

2016

 Q    拥有着艺术家、艺术指导、策展人等多重身份，您如何处理在不同身份之间转换的差异性？

从“策展人作为过滤器”到“策展人作为语境提供者”，或许可适用于新媒体艺术策展的独特挑战。

--《重思策展·新媒体后的艺术》

贝丽尔·格雷厄姆、萨拉·库克 著；

龙星如 译；

 Q    您在1999年创立Elecktra，而后2012年创立了BIAN，请问是什么原因促使您在创立了ELEKTRA国际数字艺术节后，又策划了BIAN国际媒体艺术双年展？您是如何看待二者之间的联系与区别的呢？

 A   Like I said, you know, Innovation was in the keywords for me. At some point, I found that the artists working in performance as were repeating themselves and was becoming a little bit too classic and artist making and creating installations were much more interesting. And I could see that we could, how can I say? put our feet into the contemporary art world. For me, electronic or digital tools are tools that are as chemistry, valid as painting or sculpture, or things like that. So that was also a way to bring new technology, but into the visual art, contemporary world. Yeah, we can. When we started the first one in Montreal we were able to collaborate with all the contemporary art communities. We have an opening in the two big museums, also a contemporary art museum. We had a company. We had the new piece, a creation by German artists, Carsten Nicolai. And the Fine Art Museum, as other venues. So then we had the exhibition in different venues, museums, commercial galleries and artists center.  And we went also to the communities in different neighborhoods. we were there to bring and to bring this to art to the population. So let's say the goal of this is to spread it all around the island because Montreal is an island. 

就像我说的，创新对我来说是关键。在某种程度上，我发现从事表演的艺术家在重复他们自己，并且变得有点太古典了，而艺术家的创作和装置作品变得有趣多了。我知道我们可以，怎么说呢？对我来说，当走进当代艺术世界，电子或数字工具是像化学一样有效的工具，像绘画或雕塑或类似的东西。这也是一种将新技术引入视觉艺术的现代世界的方式。当我们在蒙特利尔开办第一家画廊时，我们能够与所有当代艺术团体合作。我们开放了两个大博物馆，当然一个是当代艺术博物馆。同时我们有一家公司。我们有一件由德国艺术家Carsten Nicolai创作的新作品。和其他展会一样，我们在美术馆也有展览。然后接着我们在不同的场所，博物馆，商业画廊和艺术家中心都举办了展览。我们还去了不同地方的社区，把艺术带给人们。所以我们这样做的目的是让它遍布整个岛屿，因为蒙特利尔是一个岛屿。

或许我们已意识到，我们展出艺术的那些实体空间可能会消磨展品的生机，或者有时候，展览环境中可能的展示模式本身和作品的天性是相悖的。

--勒妮·巴厄特，“临时性实践”

（Renee Baert，“Provisional Practices”），1996

《πTon》

Cod.Act

Elektra Festival, Montreal,2018

那些学术会议、媒体艺术节或者艺术+科技的空间，比方说转译媒体艺术节、微秒科技节（the Subtle Technologies Festival）、跨界电子艺术协会（the Inter-Society for the Electronic Arts）……或者加州大学尔湾分校艺术+科技中心（the Beall Centre at University of California Irvine）等，它们是唯一的、与艺术界隔离、电脑媒介作品能发光发热的展览空间吗？或者说，“新媒体“是否只是简单地需要些新的展示空间？

-特雷栢·舒尔茨和朱迪思·罗登贝克，“惠特尼双年展06“

（Trebor Scholz and Judith Rodenbeck，“Whitney Biennial06“），2006

播放

So I was working with multiple curators in 2018. The main curator was Peter Weibel, Director of ZKM in Germany, the guest country. And in 2020, East Asia is the guest region. China, Japan, and Korea. And the curator is from South Korea, Ms DooEun Choi, based in New York. She's actually the artistic director of Hyundai ArtLab. She just became here to see their eater at a young date and seoul where we have an exhibition right now. So the idea is, with the evolution of the Biennale, is to a guest curator from the region that we are inviting. Like in 2022, it's going to be Asia Pacific. So it will include Australia and New Zealand and guest curator from Australia. And maybe in 2024, the guest curator will be a robot. Every time the idea is to find a theme, around I would say, with an implication of digital technology technologies in our life. And so in 2012, the first theme was Phenomena the question was to show to the people, in 2012, the people were not so much aware of the fact that digital technology was so much around them as much engaged in their life. In 2014, the theme Physicality was more about how to, review our relations with machines and also software. In and 2016, the theme was Art made by machines for machines. I had this idea of that theme in 2016. Just before this big buzz around artificial intelligence. So I tried to see forward like, what would be art made by machines. Machines will have the ability to create art? And let's say will machines will be able to appreciate art? This is very far away. For your imagination, let's try to imagine. And in 2018, the theme was Sing the body electric. So it was the idea was to, I think we have no more choice. We have to sing the body electric. We have to go with the flow because technology will not go away. And the idea will be too, how can we or how can we work with that? How can we benefit of that instead of being controlled by it. And in 2020, the theme is Metamorphosis. The theme really evolved because at the beginning it was more about even the human with the digital technology. But when expanding, it was also how can we, how this can affect our evolution and how can we have a much better evolution if we are taking care of of the environment, taking care of all our life and all this? So how can we use the two as something good for our evolution.

我在2018年和多位策展人一起工作。主策展人是Peter Weibel，他是德国卡尔兹鲁厄艺术与媒体中心(ZKM)的总监。2020年，东亚是主宾地区，包括中国、日本和韩国。她是来自韩国的策展人DooEun Choi，她现居在纽约。当然，她实际上是Hyundai ArtLab的艺术总监。她刚刚来到这里，我们现在在首尔有一个展览。所以我们的想法是随着双年展的发展，我们都会邀请一个来自主宾国家的策展人作为客座策展人。就像2022年一样，将会是亚太地区，因此，他将会是一位来自澳大利亚或新西兰的客座策展人。也许2024年，客座策展人会是一个机器人。每一次的想法都是去一个寻找主题：我想说的是数字技术在我们生活中的意义。在2012年，第一个主题是现象，就是要向人们展示，在2012年，人们并没有意识到数字科技就在他们身边，而且更多地参与到他们的生活中。2014年的主题是身体，更多的是关于如何反思我们与机器以及软件的关系，2016年的主题是机器为机器制造的艺术。我对2016年的主题有这样的想法。所有这些都是关于人工智能的大讨论。所以我也一样，试着展望未来，机器会创造怎样的艺术，机器是否将有能力创造艺术。假设机器将能够欣赏艺术，这是非常遥远的，我们只是试着去想象。在2018年，主题是歌唱身体电子。所以我们的想法是要提出身体电子，我认为我们没有更多的选择，我们必须顺应潮流，因为技术不会消失。这个想法也是，我们怎么能利用技术?我们如何才能从中受益，而不是被它所控制。而2020年，主题则是变形（Metamorphosis）。这个主题真的在进化，因为一开始它甚至更多的是关于人类和数字技术。但是当技术扩张的时候，这如何影响我们的进化？我们如何能看到一个更好的进化？我们如何保护环境，保护我们所有的生命和所有这些？那么，我们如何利用这两者来为我们的进化做贡献呢?

播放

Seoul Hyundai Motor Studio x ELEKTRA 首尔展览现场

2020

《Chroma》
Yunchul Kim，2019

 A  Yes, of course, for every artist every works we are asking for what we call it technical rider, we need to know what the artist is providing, what we have to provide to be able to be sure that we can show the work, and also we have to budget it, which is quite important in that. And we have to make sure that because those are group exhibitions, we have to make sure that the emplacement inside the venue, will benefit as much as possible to the artist and the audience also, to appreciate the works. So yes, we're working with our technical director and production director on this. And sometimes some works are more complicated, some other not. And especially now it's a bit much more complicated in terms regulations and things like that. So we have to be aware of this.

《EOTONE》概念图

Herman Kolgen & David Letellier

《EOTONE》概念图

Herman Kolgen & David Letellier

BIAN2014 展览现场

 Q   在BIAN的官网上我们看到会有一个国际化标栏，与不同地区以及数字艺术平台都有合作，您是如何选择这些平台的？您如何看待数字艺术在不同地区语境下的差异？能否举例详谈一下？

《Alpenglow》SabrinaRatté

巴黎加拿大文化中心 x ELEKTRA, 2020

Human Learning —What Machines Teach Us展览现场

《Inferno》

 LP Demers & Bill Vorn 

ELEKTRA 2016, Arsenal, Montreal

 A  Of course, there is a maturity after especially the first decade of 2000. It was such a novelty. At some point, like in between, there's a kind of classicism too, and especially in performances. So of course, what the artist, the kind of art the artists make. And so this is what is shown in the festival in Montreal. So sure what's happening, for the second decade I would say this more and more, I would say a crossover between what I call the digital creation and digital creativity. Digital creation, for me is art. And digital creativity is entertainment. Because we have seen more and more companies, agencies, using digital tools for mapping or simple interactive devices or things to entertain the people, for example, things like that.

So at some point, we could see that it was interesting (exhibition) because when we entered into the contemporary art world, we could see that those people that were a bit technophobic already were seeing all this. And they said no, this is not art. This is only entertainment. We were telling them, no. There's real artists working with new technology. And that should be in your museums. They are as good and as serious as the other artists that you consider as real artist. So right now there's a kind of, we have to do a little, how can I say kind of clean up ? We're trying to make them understand that there's art, there's entertainment, and sometimes there's some, why not between the two? But in the case of ELEKTRA, we're trying to say more. I would say on the left side, my left side, we really want to show art new ideas. We're not entertainers and don’t sell commercial applications. It's okay. There's other people doing that. But I think I still believe in artists with new crazy ideas. And for me, this is essential in here. And then for the research also we practice. I have strange ideas. And I really like that. And sometimes those strange ideas, at some point, goes into the commercial world, then why not. So there's all kind of interactions. But I really think that the artists in digital art are researchers. Also, because in Montreal we have an institute called Hexagram and they treated this term called research-creation. So it's artist, researchers.

当然，在2000年后的第一个10年有一个成熟期，这真是一件奇妙的事。在某种程度上，就像在这两者之间，在表演艺术上有一种古典主义，尤其是用艺术家的术语和类似的东西。当然了，什么样的艺术家创作了什么样的艺术，这就是在蒙特利尔的艺术节上所展示的。这是在第二个十年所发生的，因此我想说的是数字创作和数字创意之间的交叉。数字创作，对我来说就是艺术。数字创意就是娱乐。因为我们已经看到越来越多的公司，机构，使用数字工具来创作光影映射或简单的互动设备或娱乐人们的东西，例如，诸如此类的东西。所以在某种程度上，我们可以看到这很有趣，因为当我们进入当代艺术世界，我们可以看到那些有点技术恐惧症的人已经看到了所有这些。他们说，这不是艺术，这没什么可贬低的。这只是娱乐。我们告诉他们，不，有真正的艺术家用新的科技工作。当你走进美术馆里时，他们和你所认为的其他严肃的艺术家一样优秀。所以现在，我们需要做一点，可以说这是一种净化吗？我们试图让他们明白，艺术是存在的，娱乐是存在的，有时候，为什么不介于两者之间呢？但是在ELEKTRA的情况下，我们想说的更多。我会说在左边，我的左边，我们真的想展示艺术的新想法。这不是娱乐和商业应用，没关系，其他人也在这样做。但我仍然相信我们的艺术家有新的疯狂的想法。对我来说，这是至关重要的，然后对研究也进行了实践。我有一些奇怪的想法，但我真的很喜欢。有时候这些奇怪的想法在商业世界中有一定的意义，为什么不呢，因此这就是各种各样的反应。但我真的认为数字艺术中的艺术家是研究者。还有，另外，因为在蒙特利尔我们有一个叫做Hexagram的机构他们把这个术语叫做研究式创作，因此这就是艺术家，也是研究者。

 Q   近几年来您印象最深的艺术作品有哪些呢？以及相关的艺术家推荐。

 A  Yeah. of course, there are very good artist, I would say. One artist that we have presented many times in Montreal because his works were very special was a Austrian artist called Kurt Hentschläger. He used to be part of the duo Granular Synthesis. At the beginning of ELEKTRA was very important because I invited them to present their work called Motion Control Model 5. And it became quickly a classic, if you want. In terms of its performance, it was very, very impressive, very physical, very, very special. It really that's the kind of work that really triggered many artists to create art with electronic or digital tools. The same artist later, we invited in for a very special performance called Feed. It's a piece that at some point you're during half an hour, you are surrounded by smoke. And that smoke is so thick, that you cannot see the person sitting beside you. And he plays a lot with the perception, with the music and the lights, the smoke. It's very special because there's a first part, a video with 3D bodies falling. At some point the smoke comes into the venue. You go from a collective experience to an individual very personal experience. And what you see, you see things. But you're not sure if your eyes see those things or if it's inside your brain. It's very, very special. So that's something we showed many times in Montreal as a late night show. Because we couldn't have more than 100 persons at the time. We had to have very tight security. But every time the people were coming out from this experience and I say experience because I think we move, I'm doing just a parenthesis. This is were we went from, I would say experience. How can I say? We went to see some art and we went to seeing and hearing something to experiencing a work of art. So I'm talking about, especially with that too, about that piece. Because for some people, it was a kind of spiritual experience. And for others, it was like, I know the first time I experienced that, I was like, I think when we die, this is what happens. But I know I will be alive in 30 minutes. So that's great. Yeah. it's funny to talk about this piece because it's made with, couldn't be made without digital technology. But it's so much physical and spiritual if you want. We have some very good artists in Montreal. There's a great community because especially the province of Quebec, here in Canada, in our province is art, culture is very important. So this is why it's so much more developed in Quebec than the rest of Canada. And I would say in North America,  because the Quebec government really decided to support art and culture, and notably electronic and digital art. There's so many people.  I think I would need to make a list for you. And that's very like for our next Biennale, our star will be a Chinese artist. Her name is Lu Yang. Yeah, I really like her works. And it's really nice that we are going to have installations and performances from Japan and Korea, and Paris. In Montreal, we have a very good artist, his name is Rafael Lozano-Hemmer. He's originally from Mexico. Living in Montreal for many, many years, is one of the best artists showing around the world. He really has the foot in contemporary art, in digital art. And he is really living with his art, his works are really impressive.

当然有非常好的艺术家。我们在蒙特利尔多次展示过一位艺术家，因为他的作品非常特别，他是一位奥地利艺术家Kurt Hentschläger，他曾经参加在Granular Synthesis。在ELEKTRA开始非常重要的时刻，因为我邀请他们来展示他们的作品，叫做Motion Control Model 5.。很快就变成了一个经典，如果你想的话。从表演方面来说，它是非常非常令人印象深刻的，非常物质性的，非常的特别。这种艺术作品可以真正的激发很多艺术家用电器件或者数字化工具来创作艺术。后来还是这位艺术家，我们邀请他参加了一场非常特别的表演，名叫FEED，这是一个你在半小时内，被烟雾包围的片段。那烟非常浓，以至于你看不见坐在你旁边的人。他用感知、音乐、灯光和烟雾来演奏。它的特别之处是因为第一部分用的是三维坠落身体的视频，有3D的身体坠落等等。在某种程度上，烟雾进入场地。你从一个集体的经历过渡到一个非常个人的经历。你看到的，就是你看到的东西，但你不确定是你的眼睛看到了这些东西，还是在你的大脑里。它非常非常特别。这就是我们在蒙特利尔的深夜秀中多次展示的东西。因为在那个时候我们不能超过100个人，我们必须有非常严格的安全措施。但是每次人们从这种体验中走出来，我说体验是因为我认为我们只是在移动，只是在做一个插曲。这是我们会去哪里，是我们的体验。我们去看艺术，去看，去听，去体验艺术作品。所以我说的是，特别是关于那件作品。因为对一些人来说，这是一种精神体验。对另一些人来说，我知道我第一次经历的时候，我想当我们死亡的时候就会发生这样的事。但我知道30分钟后我还会活着，这就太好了。谈论这件作品很有趣因为它是用数字技术制作的，没有数字技术就无法制作，但如果你想的话，它是身心上的体验。我们在蒙特利尔有一些很好的艺术家。这里有一个很棒的社区，尤其是在加拿大的魁北克省，在我们的省，艺术和文化是非常重要的。这就是为什么魁北克比加拿大其他地方更发达的原因。我会说在北美，因为魁北克政府真的决定支持艺术和文化，尤其是电子和数字艺术。有那么多人。我想我需要给你列一个清单。这就像我们下一个双年展，我们的明星将会是一个中国艺术家。她的名字叫Lu Yang。我们将有来自日本、韩国和巴黎的装置和表演。在蒙特利尔，我们有一位非常优秀的艺术家，他的名字是Rafael Lozano-Hemmer。他来自墨西哥。在蒙特利尔生活了很多很多年，他是世界上最优秀的艺术家之一，他确实在当代艺术和数字艺术方面有所建树，他真的活在自己的艺术当中，他的作品真的令人印象深刻。

《Vicous Circular Breathing》
Rafael Lozano-Hemmer

2013

访谈计划

第一阶段访谈嘉宾

（按姓氏排名）

注释：

[1]《重思策展·新媒体后的艺术》贝丽尔·格雷厄姆、萨拉·库克著.龙星如译.[M].北京：清华大学出版社，2016：265