W: When did you first learn painting?

　　Z: Actually it was until 16 or 17 year old when I was in senior high school that I really got into painting learning. I had gift in it and was always the best in fine arts since a kid. I got 5 scores for it from primary school to high school. I was the first in the school then. So did the sports. I ever represented our district to participate in the Three Good Football Cup of Beijing City when I was only 13 or 14 in junior school, competing with champion teams of other districts. But I was weak in other disciplines, especially the maths.

　　I had been playing football unitl 16 or 17, especially after class. I also drew something. I grew up in Yanshan Petroleum Chemical Industry Group in suburb surrounded by kids of the workforce. Some kids from the intellectual families were not allowed to play with us. In such an environment, a kid weak in study was always looked down upon by parents and teachers. So actually I was really depressed and tried mainly to release myself through the sports. I just thought that my childhood and juvenile stage could never get out of the shadow completely: sometimes sunny, sometimes rainy, with bad feelings whenever exams came.

　　After entering into senior high school,  just 16 or 17, I suddenly found that to paint then to become a painter was the thing I desired most. However, there was no children's palace in my place and I had never heard that before. Then came a chance that I met a student of the CAFA and he was just living nearby. I was really excited. Then I learned from him for a while. Later I knew that there was somewhere to learn the fine arts in our place. So I learned the sketch in local culture museum for three or four years, the course of which equaled almost to those in the high school of CAFA. After graduation I had been a worker for a year and then prepared to give up my work and went for the university. But as I was weak in normal disciplines, I could only make into the diploma course of CAFA at my own expenses.

　　W: In which year you made into the diploma course of CAFA?

　　Z: In 1991.

　　W: How many students in the class?

　　Z: 19.

　　W: Still many of them insist on painting now?

　　Z: Maybe only me. But include my classmates, undergraduates entering and graduating the same time the same time, there maybe some to stick on it.

　　W: When in the CAFA, did the academy has any influence in your painting concept?

　　Z: It did, but not much, just for feeling the atmosphere. Honestly speaking, my imaginations of CAFA before were somehow destroyed when I was in. I found that excellent talents in any industry and circles were always that few. Though the academy was so large, the help from teachers seemed to be not so significant. Two years passed so soon. However, you know that it was not easy for me to have those learning experiences of painting, so I really cherished my chance to study in CAFA. I was hard in the class and study. Of course I was the best in painting in my class and my works were always examples for others to learn.

　　But the two years in CAFA did have one great influence that I met some people and build my own network with some schoolmates and friends, which was of great help to my future.

　　W: It must. Also you can gain some recognition from this network. Otherwise, if you are out, you will never realize even if you have gift.

　　Z: Absolutely.

　　W: After graduation, you directly got into painting without work?

　　Z: Yes.

　　W: So you mainly painted works of impressionism-style?

　　Z: I liked impressionism when I was still in school. I always painted them well. When exams, my teacher thought that I had good a taste of colors. Then two years passed soon and I just knew the basic how-to. Just like you just sit down for meal and found it was over. What should I do if I graduated. But I knew what I would like to do for the next, so I just followed it. I wanted to paint glows, for it was natural and it was easy to self-teach the painting way of impressionism. So I need a stable place when one of my classmates introduced me a small yard near the University of International Business and Economics. There were grape tree, Chinese jujube, guava tree and goldfish in the yard. I stayed in this yard for 4 or 5 years. During this period of time, I just researched the glow and trained my skills. Now looking backwards, the self-teaching and self-training in these years were so important which can not be gained from teachers in the school. I was painting while studying on the painting albums of the impressionsim. Sometimes I would invite some friends to take a look at. Then years passed by. Early today I was thinking on my way that my situation was unprecedented and would never have in future. Today the times changes so quickly and the youths don't have the will to be long absorbed in one thing.

　　W: You had been living there all the time?

　　Z: No. I just worked there in the day time and went back home in the evening.

　　W: So you've been painting all those years? How was your living?

　　Z: Yes, I had been painting all the time. But I could make a living by selling my own paintings, otherwise, how coud I make it. I had a piece of painting created when I was still in the academy and soon after graduation I sold it ouot and got 8,000 back. At that time, RMB 8,000 was quite a large amount.

　　W: So you did not need to work?

　　Z: It was an explanation for my family. As I was the eldest son in my family, how could I make a living if not working? Though I could sell my paintings, but still some tight time. But fortunately I could always sell some paintings to turn it around. Actually I was toally muddleheaded that time.

　　W: There were not too many people of your kind, so you were a professional painter early.

　　Z: Not many. I was one of the earliest professional painters. Yuanmingyuan just appeared that time.

　　W: Ever wanted to join in the Yuanmingyuan?

　　Z: No. I did not quite like the environment there. Actually I had some friends there, but I did not like to go.

　　W: So you just painted alone near the university? Anyone surrounding you also painted?

　　Z: Yes, but no much contact. The guy who introduced me the yard was a friend in oil painting department of CAFA. At that time he was a teacher in a college of art and design and he just rented it together with a room in the east. He invited me to join and paid him half of the rent RMB 150 for a month. Sometimes I could not even took out that amount. Then he left soon for he had appartment assigned by his college. So he only stayed there for a short period of time but later he sometimes droped at the yard and said he envied me.

　　W: The Sunny Days was painted there?

　　Z: Yes, in 1995. It was also a piece of life painting, but not in my yard, just in the Wall Relics Park nearby.

　　W: How about the model?

　　Z: I painted the model in the yard for there was tree shadow under the grape frame, I had the montage there. Sometimes I would move the tree and scene there and make my life painting.

　　W: So your painting at that time was influenced by the impressionism?

　　Z: I was really fascinated about the impressionists, especially Manet and Serov. Serov's piece on his cousin was quite good. So when painting the Sunny Days, I tried to get close to that feeling.

　　W: It is fairly healthy to view that kind of paintings. It is also a kind of paintings which can never be created in the environment of Yuanmingyuan. From your paintings, your personality and temperament can be seen clearly. Generally speaking your paintins are healthy, mild and lyric, without something furious and irritable, something specially distorted and oppressed. The contemporary art in early 1990s inevitably contained a kind of cultural politics and ideological color, rebellion, criticism, irony and helplessness were popular in contemporary art. It was the necessity of the history. But in your works, none of these can be seen-no wonder you did not like Yuanmingyuan. Actually, whether your living status or painting style, painting way and interest, there was nothing to do with other artists and art trend at that time.

　　Z: If I had the will to move to Yuanmingyuan, there wouldn't be paintings of impressionism stye.

　　W: If you moved to Yuanmingyuan, you would have paintings of ideological color, for living style, living experience and friend circles have great deals with the art creation. You were alone here and just painted based on your own interest and need, discarding the external influence. Moreover, to some extent, your painting was a kind of self-teaching and self-training from the right beginning. It was the problem of technical improvement, not the declaration to the society. What you painted had something to do with your temperament; and you liked the paintings themselves. You thought the technique, the feelings and the forms were good; you just liked them. So you consciously imitated them.

　　Z: I did not force myself, just liked it by the light of nature. So time passed so quickly while painting, the feelings were quite good and interesting.

　　W: You created these paintings out of mainstream during these years. Anyone recognized you? Did your Sunny Days have certain influence at that time?

　　Z: At that time two schoolmates and I had our exhibition in Art Gallery of Beijing International Art Palace in Wangfujing. Many people got my name in that exhibition. They suddently found that there was still someone painted this way. Many olders and teachers thought that I had great hope to succeed. However, at that time I was not so confident and always thought if I was not as good as others. Now looking backwards, I realize that I was such an excellent piece of works I ever had. But it was that period of time that I thought I could not make it.

　　W: You created a lot of paintings like this, but why you stopped later?

　　Z: Because whenever I had myself in the yard, I painted this kind of stuff. I nearly painted on all corners of the yard, even things within 300 or 400 meters around the yard.

　　W: Life painting?

　　Z: Yes. I observed everywhere around, including the roads or streets around the university. Then I felt sick of it and did not want to paint it anymore. I could not do one thing all the time. For example, in this period, I just prepared myself a meal and after I had enough, I should have other stuff. For you have already had enough of it. No matter how hard I worked, how many more I painted, I just got the increase in the amount. I just thought it was done and I had already solved most of the problems met. Even if I met more, I could never solve it.

　　W: No need to repeat.

　　Z: I really felt sick and tired of it. I could no longer stand it in my heart. Then I felt that I needed some change. So I moved out to a building appartment, just to be apart with the green plants. I felt very bad in that period of time and did not know what to paint. I jus felt being broken away from the life painting. Then a year later, I gradually shifted from impressionism to graphics with works like White Bird Paradise, Beauty and the Beast, Man and Crane and Classic Garden. It took me two or three years to shift.

　　W: I have not seen this kind of paintings?

　　Z: Not many of these paintings, just three big ones and two small ones. Totally five.

　　W: Later after this transition, you concentrated on Houhai painting, or something else?

　　Z:I painted on the landscape of Beijing as well, like Jianguomen. In 2000, I painted my first Chang'an Street, as well as my Houhai painting. The problem was how to shift from the impressionism painting. It was really troublesome, from independent life painting to Tian'anmen, to Houhai, how to shift? I found that I was not good at story making. Like the Beauty and Beast, a story-making one. I put human here, but there needed the animal. I was not good at story making and I did not like narration.

　　W: You did not like narrating.

　　Z: Yes. I just liked describing a common thing. I would not care whether you understood or not. Then two years passed quickly and I made my way through it and found that I could paint urban landscape. Just expanded my vision from the landscape in the yard to that beyond milimeters. It was the grape tree in the yard, but later became that in the Chang'an Street, even with natural glow, still with feelings of impressionism. There was certain connection between them. I could never be completed broken away from the impressionism. It was one of my roots.

　　W: You style was still united in your description of real scenes. There were many sceneries in Beijing, including those streets, but you just chose Chang'an Street, any special purpose? You painted Jianguomen, Tian'anmen city gate and square, repeatedly in different angles, any special purpose? People may easily think that Tian'anmen is a special place and inevitably contains some political meanings and symbolization. However, there are many works themed on Tian'anmen in contemporary art, endowing it with various meanings. However, you seemed to regard Tian'anmen and its city gate as pure formal symbols. The city gate were really small without solemnity, just part of a painting, a single scenery, a formal object. Therefore, compared with those paintings regarding it as a kind of symbol, yours were quite different. I am still wondering why you chose these objects, Tian'anmen and Chang'an Street? Any special consideration?

　　Z: Maybe some considerations in the form. I sometimes passed by Changan Street and looked at Tian'anmen in the west Chang'an Street and found that Tian'anmen was sometimes a red scenery embeded in green. It looked so beautiful and I just had the impulse to keep it.

　　W: Just as a common formal scenery?

　　Z: Yes. It was the main consideration then. I just regarded it as a beautiful scenery. What I pursued was just the beauty. Just as my way of viewing impressionism stuff, it was beautiful and I wanted to show it out. It was just I met it and I loved it. That's all. Maybe it had another kinds of explanation, but I never thought about it.

　　W: Maybe there was something special that you may have not realized. There were so many places and sceneries in Beijing, so many sceneries you may think beautiful, why just that place? There must be something special, permeating in our childhood and consciousness in a secret way. it sometimes secretly controled us, though you just thought it was beautiful. Your series of the square are quite interesting. Connecting the I, II and III together, it is like viewing a video tape going fast, so blur. Also there were many people in the square, and you just painted them vaguely.

　　Z: When you stand in the square, you always have people flowing around you, all 365 days.

　　W: When I saw this piece, I have some special feelings. How to say, something humoristic-still related to the special background of Tian'anmen. Those people in the square, came from all around the world. What were they doing here? Visiting or taking a look at, the national flag, Tian'anmen city gate. Chairman Mao's Portrait or just the square itself?  They came here as the subjects of the viewing. But in these paintings, those viewing subjects were regarded as the objects viewed. I saw those viewers, who are the viewing subjects of Tian'anmen, but viewing objects to me. You transferred this viewing in quite an interesting way: they were originally coming with clear targets, they knew what to see, but in the paintings, their eyes seemed to be dissociated and lost, seemingly to view but did not know what to view. Did people usually feel lost when with strong target? Moreover, these visitors, did they really know why they were here visiting Tian'anmen? I was asking these questions when viewing your paintings. Visiting Tian'anmen becomes a problem. When I first came to Beijing, Tian'anmen was the first place I visited. Why do we all go to Tian'anmen?

　　Z: People do have the same feelings as you have.

　　W: You made your picture so vague and it was like dreaming, seemingly covered by something. Tian'anmen was vague, so do the streets and people. Why treated like that?

　　Z: Why? I just thought that if the facial expressions of people are unique and specific, then people's thinking will be affected. For me, other painters have their own way and my works are mine. If a man is treated so specifically, then the mood of the whole picture will be affected, so do my special feelings.

　　W: Tian'anmen and those street scenes were all created based on photos? First took photos then painted on them?

　　Z: Yes. Since 2000, I totally relied on the photos.

　　W: Such way of painting, I mean the vague treatment, was influenced by Richter? Nowadays many people get influence from him.

　　Z: Yes. But I just liked him not for the sake of chasing the trend. Among impressionists, Monet's paintings were vague as well, but he just the brushworks. You may see that his spots of sunshine was circles, so from Monet to Richter, it was a natural shift. Thought there was some leap, but not so abrupt. In additional, emotionally speaking, the vague treatment was close to my fancy of Song Yuan's paintings. Like the "hidden" in MI Youren and ZHAO Yong's paintings, there is something in common between their "hidden" and LI's "vague". I used his language and way to describe things happened today. Until now, there is nothing original or not in the art, the important is that you must find a kind of language you like and are familiar with. Say something happened around, express your view of life. Now I may not treat all of my paintings in vague way, but what is important is to express naturally.

　　W: When did you begin your series of Swimming in Houhai?

　　Z: Soon after my painting of Tian'anmen in 2000. Why was Houhai? Because I hated my previous way of painting and felt sick of my original way. At that time my understanding of contemporary art was quite flat, just like the prints. Just like ads, hanged out strikingly, specially beautiful. So I just felt like to have another try. Like the sky in Chang'an Street, I just tiled with a bit of shadow, simple and pure. I thought if I could move forward a step further, being simpler and purer? But it is not good to be so forceful and intended, so you must find a theme.

　　W: Find something natural and easy to shift to. That is to say, it should be connected to your characteristics and style, and also suitably express your new demand, more graphical in treatment. So you just chose the water in Houhai?

　　Z: Yes. The water in Houhai was blue and placid. You just described it as something flat and blue, like a nice and extended poster. This was the style I liked, but I tried to achieve some small quivers in the placid picture. Then I again added some waves and green trees on the bank, to have some coonection with my previous paintings, which meant that I again took my impressionism thing here. Such flatness was in harmony with the popular way of expressing at that time. When painting on Houhai, I found a new way out and created a large batch of paintings. For I was lonely for I had been myself during that period of time. Due to my personality, I was easy to have feelings towards these small and tiny things. I usually saw a small figure slowly swimming in Houhai, felt just like me. So in the picture, I added a lonely swimmer and I was a little sad when painted these pictures. It was all I wanted to express. I did not like magnific narrating, I just felt it was so boring and artificial. There was no such thing in real life, but something small and common could easily touch me.

　　W: That was daily life, especially simple one, not something dramatic.

　　Z: I did not like dramatic daily life.

　　W: Those paintings on Houhai were nice indeed. If you wished a specially nice picture, it was out of question. The color was fairly single and pure, also reserved. The whole picture was fairly quiet. If you like this kind of colors, you will certainly like these pictures. Of course, if roughly viewing, you may think it is dull and simple, just something purely in colors. But carefully, you will find a man swimming in the water, but too small to notice. He was swimming, stiring the surface with a little waves, slowly rippling. Just these ripplings equiped the picture with slight ripples. The water ruffle aroused that of the picture. No matter water surface or the picture, they both looked so flat, but the swimmer inside just aroused certain passion as the origin and focus. It achieved a kind of balance. So the picture had a kind of slow and reserved rhym with slight quiver. Lyric and upset. The chickenshit swimmer within such a vast world, how to say, was struggling or free as a fish in water; or was striving or swimming freely. The effect was good.

　　Z: The ripple of water makes people intranquil.

　　W: Yes, intranquil, but not disturbance. Just a tiny dynamic feeling, a tiny swirl. Or lyric and upset.

　　Z: Many people have this kind of feelings, but still some people had other ones. For example, some one said that he saw Zen in my works.

　　W: There is no fixed conclusion of artistic explanations. Everyone will see different things in every piece of works. It is just the charm of the art. If there is only the purpose of the creator expressed in his or her works, then it is not works in real sense. The artist is the creator of meanings, but he or she is not the judge of meanings. It is the difference between the artist and the theorist. The water in Houhai, if you think it is so quiet and hollow, you can view it in the angle of Zen. You think people will feel free and easy in the water, so you can also view it in ZHUANG Zi's view of point. Actually, these works will have different feelings in different people's views. Every one will have connection with the works based on his or her own habits, life experiences, historical background and cultural education. In this sense, all works will have someone who understands. For example, someone standing before these works may think there is nothing inside the picture and nothing can touch him or her; But another may find everything so magic and touching. For example, he may find that there is a little turbulence in life and think that he himself is so tiny, but could still stir certain small wave in this world; but still someone does have some feelings but can not speak out. So there is no final explanation of the art. Sometimes it is a counter one, sometimes it is a kind of feelings hard to speak out.

　　Z: Yes. People do have feelings towards the art, but the latter can never change the former. For this, I am relatively pessimistic and I just think the art can change nothing, even my parents. I painted for years and my parents still hold their original views. I can never change them. So sometimes I am hopeless and doesn't believe that the art can change the world. It may exert a subtle influence, but totally speaking I am pessimistic about the function of the art.

　　W: Art never changes others, but only the artist. If you would say it can change the work, then it should depend on the power of economy and politics. The art can not change the world.

　　Z: However, people sometimes want to change the world. What would you do if the big environment makes you uncomfortable? Though I only care about my trivias in my heat, but even the trivias rely on the big environment surrounded, which determines the niche of the heart. I don't like many things around. But I am not able to change them; even sometimes I think it can not be changed. People always have the dream to change bad environment, but how to do? I can only do something I can silently. So deep in my heart, I have multiple feelings, sometimes I need to release myself. Though such a quiet man, I like rock music and always go out to the bars to enjoy those underground bands at about 22:00 on my way home after painting.

　　W: There is no rock sense shown in your pictures.

　　Z: Yes. My pictures are quiet. Together with the rock, they are two extremities.

　　W: Your paintings show the same taste and temperament as yours, quite in harmony, with no furious feelings. In performance effect, or stirring effect, you will not arouse attention from some people, for what you paint are landscape, daily life and feelings of daily life. All of your works have connection with your earliest love of impressionism. For impressionism, it can arouse some stir for it is a kind of new-brand painting form. But your way of painting is not that kind-though it is rare for people to paint like this. Actually, painting, such an artistic discipline, can hardly produce convulsion in form. So what? People can only find ways in concepts and subject matters. For example, a couple of years ago, people used to talk about the concept of painting, the ideology of painting and the politics of painting. People made much of these. Indeed, how can it be painting without concepts? It was just people were willing to specially emphasize and enlarge this point and talk about this. Obviously, this is not clear in your paintings. You really don't like narrating and magnifing the themes, you don't like the so-called concepts and special declaration and expressing of the times.  Your paintings show nothing political-even Tian'anmen became unpolitical. Your paintings are neither rational, nor with obscure fable, quite daily and unromantic. They are also nice with some popular color of petty bourgeoisie. So such paintings could not arouse hot attention in this times. But in the contrary, in some sense, your works will be accepted and liked by many people, as the pictures are comfortable to view without abrupt feelings and intended depth. They are easy to be exchanged and appreciated. You are emphasizing your personal feelings, which may be different from intended conceptual paintings. So people like your paintings just like the form you have, something nice but upset, touching-you must know these are things most of the people may like.

　　Z: I know, so I don't like to be so intended in many things. I like to let it be, which I have been insisting on for years. I just thought the art zoology in China should be richer as the artists and works abroad. We here only have fairly single art.

　　W: Did anyone say that your paintings were not so contemporary?

　　Z: Nobody told me like that. I am not so caring about the problem of contemporary or not.

　　W: I think your art and pictures should also be richer. For example, your early impressionism stuff, you could have the same style but not only in the way of impressionism. It was not necessary to over emphasize on light and color. You can just peacefully paint the most common daily life. Of course you could paint the street scenes as well, including the parks. For some most common daily life, it was not necessary to fill it with rays of light. You just painted it out and it would show its lyric and glow itself.  I think it would be a suitable way you would have. Something plain, simple and natural in daily life were suitable for you. The original Chang'an street and Jianguomen in your paintings were lyric sceneries without human beings. I think if added some common scenes with human beings, your pictures would be more interesting. For example, a mother with her child walking in the street, with very high building blocks on two sides of the street, etc. Such subject matters are something many people don't like, or can not paint, but I think they are suitable for you.

　　Z: I should further think about this. It doesn't matter what kind of styles, but the most important thing is the ways to present.

　　W: It was just some words on your style. I like observing people in daily life. But scenes without people also have their own taste.

　　Z: My next theme may be focused on something with human beings, including portraits of my friends, in huge size. It is just an idea.

　　W: Daily life is quite interesting subject, but it seems that people have no daily life now-mainly dramatic life, seemingly everyday is festival and passionate. Many people work hard for passions, have rest for two days then back to passions again. Rest is for better regaining of passion. What kind of days they have? Feel like fighting all the time in life. In this point, your works seem to be a rectified complementary to the furious status nowadays, re-offering mild sense of daily life. However, daily life has another side except nice lyric pursue, it still has hardships and troubles, with many people living in the bottom of life, whom, especially their daily life, can not be seen in your works.

　　Z: Peace and quietness can only be achieved through hardships and troubles.

　　W: Yes. But I only talk about daily life itself. It is not that the artist has to paint something. Of course I am not forcing you to deliberately change something. The starting point of your paintings are your feelings and temperament. I just think life should be like this, lyric, upset and nice. Or it should say you just paint what you like. The most important thing is that the artist should have his or her own style, unique one. Then is the effect it has. Of course, no style, no effect.

　　Z: Though I do not express the hardship and cruelty of daily life in my works, they do touch many people, for such lonely feelings are common to people, whether you are rich or not.

　　W: I am not saying that you works can not touch people. I am saying that your paintings are close to your temperament. What I mean is that daily life is specially rich, but due to your temperament, you offer your paintings something close to it.

　　Z: Something diluent.

　　W: Viewing your paintings, talking with you and having some understanding make me feel that your paintings are quite alike yourself. It is hard for you to paint something without connection to your temperament and personality. It is impossible for you to paint on blood, violence and wars; it is also hard for you to express deliberately abstract concepts. Art creation is such an inherent thing and it seems that you just like something nice and beautiful.

　　Z: You know, whatever I paint, I will make them beautiful. It is such a good thing and my paintings are very nice.

　　W: Actually you are quite stressing upon the form. You believe in formalism.

　　Z: Yes. But not deliberately, just native and inherent.

　　W: I agree. No matter what kind of art creation, painting, writing or music, you will surely show your special gift and special temperament through your works. So do our theoretical guys. Who's theories I like, who influences me or how to engage in my theoretical writing, etc. All these are completely body-connected, it is hard to explain or can just be explained through body. Your creation style, your formalism temperament, your lyric and upset emotions are determined by your bodies and unchangable. Also there is no need to change. So in art creation, it will never be too much to emphasize the importance of the body. Last question, did you have the moment that you can not paint on and thought it was specially hard to paint and did not know how to paint?

　　Z: Yes, always, and will. But I could always make through it. For years, I have been accustomed to such status and I have preparations for it. Fuss, anxiety, don't know what to paint and how to present. Now I always make summarizations, for example, I made this mistake for several times and now it comes again, so let it come and I can stand it. With time passing by, I will always find new starting point. I think people in any industry may face such situations as I have.

　　W: I also have feelings of being unable to write on sometimes.

　　Z: Quite normal. I think it is a good phenomena. You will make through it if you can stand it.

　　W: I agree. Stant it and you will feel smooth in a couple of days. Then your idea and presentation will come again.

　　Z: These days I am reading the book On the Road. The writer said that he could not write on. Once he drove out for a long period of time and then his writing back again. It seems to be the same to anyone. So there is no need to fear. But facing with this situation is really a kind of suffering.

　　W: Sometimes people will just feel frustrated and quite inconfident. Sometimes I just think whether I am not suitable for this trade and whether to jump. But it passes away quickly then you turn back and think you are still the right person in this trade.

　　Z: Yes, that is right. All things need some "standing" to make through. All things are "on the road".

作者：ZHANG Jian,WANG Minan