“第六届广州三年展策展人访谈系列”是广东美术馆为深化学界和大众对本届主题“诚如所思：加速的未来”以及展览结构的理解、呈现策展人在展览筹划背后的个人思考而开设的系列。本次我们对策展人菲利浦·齐格勒进行了访谈，菲利浦现任ZKM |德国卡尔斯鲁厄艺术与媒体中心的策展部主任，由他负责的主题展第一部分“叠加:数字中的艺术”借鉴了 ZKM长期以来参与媒体艺术和数字技术的经验，该部分将展现数字在当今社会中与日俱增的重要性和影响力，并探讨当今的艺术家如何让自己的作品与数字产生关联以及数字如何改变着我们的思维、生活和工作。

菲利普·齐格勒 Philipp Ziegler

艺术史学家、策展人；曾于德国斯图加特和意大利米兰学习艺术史，现任ZKM | 德国卡尔斯鲁厄艺术与媒体中心的策展部主任。

自2012年起，齐格勒先生在ZKM策划多个有代表性的展览，其中包括： 《数字虚构》（2017，ZKM）、《混合层》(2017，ZKM )、《向外演化》（2015，ZKM）、《Armin Link：隐形事物的外表》(2015，ZKM)、《全球行动主义》(2013, ZKM)、《Otto Piene：Energiefelder》(ZKM, 2013)。此外，齐格勒曾任巡回展览“完美未来：德国的当代艺术”（2013，对外文化关系研究所）的策展人。在担任ZKM策展人之前，曾在多个美术馆与艺术空间策划展览，并参与创办了Hermes und der Pfau（位于斯图加特的当代艺术项目空间，2007-2012年）。齐格勒的主要著作有：共同编著《Stephen Willats：艺术、社会和反馈》（2010年）。

广东美术馆：本届广州三年展以“诚如所思：加速的未来”为主题，这个题目是如何确定的，该如何理解？通过这个主题，本届三年展试图探讨什么问题？

GDMoA:The 6th Guangzhou Triennial titled As We May Think, Feedforward, how to determine this topic, and how to understand? What is the subject tries to explore?

菲利浦·齐格勒：当今世界，科技无所不在：它已经渗透到了我们生活的方方面面；我们今天的人文、自然环境和科技形成了一个新的现实，即所谓的“科技圈”（Technosphere），或者，我们也可以称其为“信息圈”（Infosphere）,意指日常生活中的数字渗透。随着人类与非人类之间有增无减的相互依存，西方科学的基础之一的人类中心主义二元论、主客分离、也就是“自我在此、世界在彼”这样的现代主义观念已然摇摇欲坠。就是在这样的契机下，“第六届广州三年展”以美国计算机先驱和工程师范内瓦·布什（Vannevar Bush）于1945年发表的《诚如所思》（As We May Think）一文作为引子展开探讨。文中布什描述了一种可被普及的知识机器，他称之为“扩展存储器”（Memex），算是个人电脑和超文本的一个初始概念，以它为载体可以将信息表现为一个网状的非线性关系结构。通过三个各有所侧重的章节：不断渗透的数字化、人类与非人类的关系和机器与设备的世界观，本届三年展编织出一张切入点互相关联的网，再通过艺术的角度展现科技进步的过程及其在全球各地的影响。

Philipp Ziegler:Our present is characterized by the omnipresence of technology: All areas of life today arepermeated with technology, our human culture, our natural environment and technology today form a new reality, which can be called Technosphere, or related to the digital penetration of our everyday life, Infosphere. The modernist concept of anthropocentric dualism, the separation of subject and object, which belongs to the foundations of Western science, in which the self is here and the world is there, can no longer be maintained under the conditions of the increasing interdependence of human and non-human being. This is where the 6th Guangzhou Triennale comes in, with reference to the famous essay As We May Think by American computer pioneer and engineer Vannevar Bush, published in 1945. In his text Bush describes a universal knowledge machine, which he calls Memex, a kind of aforerunner of the personal computer and hypertext, through which information can be represented as a net-like, non-linear system of relationships. With its three chapters devoted to the growing precence of the digital, the relationship of human and nonhuman, and the worldview of machines and apparatuses, theTriennale possesses a set of web of interconnected entry points through which, from the perspective of art, the course of technological progress and its global effects can be mapped.

广东美术馆：您策划的是第一部分“叠加:数字中的艺术”，可否阐述一下该题目的含义以及您的策展思路？

GDMoA:You will curate the first part Inside the Stack: Art in the Digital, could you talk about the meaning of the title and your curatorial ideas for us?

菲利浦·齐格勒：本届三年展第一章“叠加：数字中的艺术”将展现数字在当今社会中与日俱增的重要性和影响力，并探讨当今的艺术家如何让自己的作品与数字产生关联以及数字如何改变着我们的思维、生活和工作。本章节标题中的“叠加”（stack）取自本杰明·布拉顿（Benjamin Bratton）所创的概念，这个概念指向的是他所描绘的由无数计算机和网络所构建的巨型结构，一个覆盖全球的计算设备，共分为六个互联的层级：大地、云、城市、地址、界面和用户。布拉顿的调查研究涉及面广，从稀土资源的开采到云计算的基础设施无所不包，创造了一个对今天人类的生存来说如同大气层一样不可缺少的信息圈架构。

Philipp Ziegler:The first chapter of the Triennial, Inside the Stack: Art in the Digital, presents the growing importance of the digital and its impact on contemporary society. It explores how artists today deal with the digital in their work and how the digital is changing the way we think,live and work. The title refers to Benjamin Bratton's concept of the"stack," in which he describes the mega-structure created by computers and the Internet as a computational apparatus spanning the planet Earth, consisting of six interrelated levels (Earth, Cloud, City, Address,Interface, User). From the mining of rare earths to the infrastructures of Cloud Computing, Bratton's investigation creates an architecture of the infosphere that is just as essential to the survival of mankind today as the earth's atmosphere. 

广东美术馆：这一部分与主题展另外两部分之间是什么关系？

GDMoA:What is the relationship between this part and the other two parts?

菲利浦·齐格勒：本届三年展三个章节的主标题之间相互关联，交集甚多。它们虽从不同的角度来探讨我们的当下，但这些角度互有重叠、互为基础且交织缠绕。今天，数字化、后人类主义和机器学习是齐头并进的三个方向，无法分而待之。因此，我们不会将三个章节的艺术家从物理上分隔开，而是让大家相互关涉，一览未来人与科技之间的关系。

Philipp Ziegler:The main topics of the three chapters of the Triennale are interdependent and in close exchange with each other. They deal with our present from different perspectives which, however, overlap in many ways, buildon each other and are intertwined. Digitisation, posthumanism and machinelearning today go hand in hand and cannot be treated separately. Therefore, in the Triennial the artists of the three chapters will not be physically separated from each other, but will be presented as related to each other, thus taking a glimpse of the future relationship between man and technology. 

广东美术馆：您如何挑选艺术家，请介绍几组比较特别的艺术家和作品。

GDMoA:How do you choose artists? Could you introduce us some groups of artists and their works?

菲利浦·齐格勒：本次对艺术家的挑选是基于ZKM|德国卡尔斯鲁厄艺术与媒体中心长久以来对艺术和科技之间关系的探究。目前在广州参展的艺术家中，有好几位我们之前在ZKM就合作过。譬如，本展中的装置作品《数字代码谱系》和《你的代码/你是代码》就曾在ZKM的“开放代码：活在数字世界中”一展中展出过。两件作品都是以一种互动的、教导式的方式来呼应本展览的主题。而其他的作品，如在迪莉娅·朱尔根斯（Delia Jürgens）的装置和中国艺术家关小的《天气预报》中，数字革新的影响则更为隐晦。

Philipp Ziegler:The selection of the artists is based on the ZKM | Center for Art and Media Karlsruhe's longstanding engagement with the relationship of art, science and technology. I have worked with a number of the artists who are now being shown in Guangzhou before in exhibitions at the ZKM. The installations Genealogy of the Digital Code or YOU:R:CODE shown in Guangzhou, for example, are works that are part of the exhibition Open Codes. Living in Digital Worlds at the ZKM. Both works deal with the topic of the exhibition in an interactive, didatic way. In other works, such as the installation of Delia Jürgens' or Weather Forecast by the Chinese artist Guan Xiao, the effects of digital change can be sensed more remotely.

广东美术馆：您认为我们何时进入了数字媒体时代，它的特征是什么，给人们带来了哪些根本性的影响？

GDMoA:When do you think we entered the digital age? what is features of it? What are the fundamental impacts of digital technology on people?

菲利浦·齐格勒：众所周知，如今的数字时代或信息时代是继农耕时代和工业时代后的第三个时代。在这个时代中，电子化的信息既可用作原材料，又可以当作一种商品。不过，关于从工业时代过渡到信息或数字时代的准确时间，基于不同的立场产生了不同的意见。大家的共识是，数字化时代大约从1990年开始，历经了一连串的演变。其中，第一个阶段，大约到世纪之交为止，以计算机联网为主线；第二个阶段，截至2015年左右，主要体现为移动设备在日常生活中的普及。第三个阶段，即我们的当下，将实现各种实体端和虚拟端的联网。到第四个阶段，现实将与数字化的网络世界完全融合，我们的生活将发生根本性的、无法预见的转变。

Philipp Ziegler:The digital age or also the information age is generally regarded as the third age after the agrarian and the industrial age. In this age, electronically processed information functions both as a raw material and as a commodity. There are different opinions on when exactly the transition from the industrial to the information or digital age took place, depending on the point of view. It is generally accepted that the age of digitalization took place in successive stages of evolution and began around 1990. In the first evolutionary stage,which is scheduled until about the turn of the millennium, the main focus was on networking computers; in the second, until about 2015, it was primarily on general acceptance and familiarization with the everyday use of mobile devices.The third stage, which we are currently in, is characterised by the networking of all physical and virtual things. In the fourth phase, there will be acomplete fusion of the real and digitally networked world, which will fundamentally put our lives on a new basis with consequences not yet foreseeable.  

广东美术馆：技术伦理是一个经久不衰的话题，此次参展艺术家为我们提供了哪些新鲜的视角？

GDMoA:Technology ethics is an enduring topic, what king of new perspective can the artists provide to us?

菲利浦·齐格勒：本届三年展的艺术家们对展览主题的切入手法可谓招式各异，然而，像地震仪预测未来的地震一样，他们对未来的发展几乎都持有一种后人类主义的观点，即认为计算机辅助智能系统将拥有越来越多的人类特征。未来，地球的发展在很大程度上将不需要人类的直接参与，本届三年展的作品所展现的就是这样的未来，它们就好像我们这个时代的科幻小说一般。

Philipp Ziegler:The artists of the Triennale deal with these themes in a variety of ways. As seismographs of future developments, however, they almost all show a posthumanist perspectivein which more and more characteristics are transferred to computer-aided intelligent systems. In the future, the Earth's trajectories will therefore benegotiated largely independently of man, and the Triennale's works prepare us for this future, which is still reminding us of science fiction today.

广东美术馆：不同的国家技术发展水平也有不同，以您的观察，不同国家艺术家的创作方向是否会呈现出各自的倾向？

GDMoA:Different countries have different levels of technology development, in your observation, do you think  the artists from different countries would have different creative direction?

菲利浦·齐格勒：如今科技的发展是一个全球性的现象，很难从国家的层面进行划分。因此我们决定不从地缘政治的角度来展现科技与人类之间的关系，而是从一个更根本的观察点来探讨当下与各种科技相关的常见问题。

Philipp Ziegler:Today, technological developments are a global phenomenon that is difficult to grasp through national definitions. We have therefore decided to present the relationship of technology to man not from a geopolitical but from a kind of metaposition that explores general questions about the relationship to current technologies.

广东美术馆：在讨论与科学、技术发展密切相关的话题时，艺术如何避免沦为科学的附属或传道士？

GDMoA:When we discussing the topics closely related to the development of science and technology, how can art avoid becoming the subsidiary or preacher of science.

菲利浦·齐格勒：就是让艺术家与他们所要探讨的主题保持批判性的距离，只有这样，他们才能对科学技术产生新的看法。

Philipp Ziegler:By giving artists a critical distance to their subject, which makes them open up new perspectives on science and technology.

广东美术馆：您认为此次展览对普罗大众来说意义在哪儿？

GDMoA: what is the significance of this exhibition to the public? 

菲利浦·齐格勒：我们现在每个人，无论年龄大小、文化程度如何，都要跟科技打交道，尤其是数字科技。中国更是如此，在我看来，中国人似乎能很好地适应最新的科技，且对那些能快速改变我们当下生活的科技创新十分感兴趣。这也正是本届三年展与大众的连接点。观众不需要有多懂前卫艺术，他们只需要带着好奇和开放的心态即可，如此他们会了解到各种有关当今世界的新视角，继而受到启发，开始思考今天的数字革命和科技创新将带来什么样的改变。

Philipp Ziegler:Everyone, regardless of age or level of education, today has to deal with technologies, especially digital technologies. In China in particular, it seems to me, people have no fear at all of dealing with the latest technologies and are very interested in the innovations that are rapidly changing our present day in science and technology. This is exactly where this year's Triennale will pick them up. Visitors don't need any previous knowledge about avant-garde art, they just need to be curious and open-minded in order to get to know new perspectives on our present and to be inspired to think about the changes that the digital revolution and technological innovation mean today.

广东美术馆：您对数字媒体时代艺术的未来发展持什么态度？

GDMoA: What is your attitude about the future development of art in the digital age?

菲利浦·齐格勒：未来，艺术将继续发挥重要作用，帮助我们更好地认识我们所居住的世界。当然，艺术的创作、展览、收藏和接收方式或许会变得不一样。我们可以展望一下未来的变化，想像一下沉浸式技术如AR、VR或全息远程呈现的发展将会如何改变我们体验艺术的方式。

Philipp Ziegler: Art will continue to play an important role in the future and help us to better understand the world in which we live. The way in which art is produced, exhibited, collected and received will certainly change.We can be curious about what the future will bring us and what influence immersive technological developments such as AR, VR or new possibilities of holographic telepresence will have on how we experience art.

策展人：菲利普·齐格勒

“叠加: 数字中的艺术”将吸引世界各地艺术家来关注数字日益增长的影响力及其对社会的影响。该部份展览将以数字技术、互联网和社交网络的新视角进行展示，同时考察受数字影响的当今艺术实践的虚拟和实体表现。20年前，全球数字化存储信息量首次超过模拟信息储存量， “数字时代”已经改变了我们的思维、行为和感受。我们日常生活中的所有领域，我们的感知和知识生产如今都受制于数字化的影响。因此，数字是“全球网络化社会中占据主导地位的文化技术，生物圈和信息圈在其中互相渗透、互相影响。”（威贝尔）参展艺术家通过作品表达了对数字化的各种观点，他们的作品因而是“先验的”。“叠加: 数字中的艺术”借鉴了 ZKM 长期以来参与媒体艺术和数字技术的经验，特别是不久前举行的ZKM“混合体、开放代码和信息圈”展览所展出的内容。将本杰明·布拉顿的“叠加”概念作为一个象征和结构框架，“叠加: 数字中的艺术”提出了将数字作为重塑当代经验的新型现实的基本问题，以及艺术家对这一现实的创造性反应。

  “叠加: 数字中的艺术”将回顾迄今为止的计算机技术发展史，提出关于数字基础设施的深刻见解，展现数字对当代的渗透，预测未来数字技术发展的前景。

策划 / 梁洁

采访 / 陈峰

翻译 / 安妮译树翻译工作室

编辑 / 曾睿洁 刘丹妮