“第六届广州三年展策展人访谈系列”是广东美术馆为深化学界和大众对本届主题“诚如所思：加速的未来”以及展览结构的理解、呈现策展人在展览筹划背后的个人思考而开设的系列。本次我们对策展人安琪莉可·斯班尼克进行了访谈，自2005年以来，安琪莉可一直担任荷兰埃因霍温MU艺术中心的馆长及策展人，同时，她还在过去六年连续三届担任STRP创新科技双年展的总监和创意负责人。这些经历使安琪莉可长期与国际的艺术家、设计师、理论家和学者有着广泛而紧密的合作，也使她保持着对数字艺术、生物艺术和设计研究等领域的密切关注和深度思考。本届广州三年展中，安琪莉可负责策划主题展第二部分“同类演化”，该部分将在伦理层面探究技术的发明和干预，将主体性延伸到非人类的生命，通过以技术进步作为艺术探索起点的艺术家和设计师，引导人们去思考并探讨相关的问题以及展现在他们眼前的各种未来情景。

安琪莉可·斯班尼克 Angelique Spaninks

安琪莉可·斯班尼克自2005年以来一直担任荷兰埃因霍温MU艺术中心的馆长及策展人。MU是荷兰主要的当代艺术机构之一，自1998年成立以来一直是荷兰领先的艺术空间。除此以外，安琪莉可·斯班尼克也在过去6年间（2012-2018）参与运营STRP创新科技双年展，该展览融合艺术、音乐、表演、科技和研讨会，是欧洲最大型的室内混合文化的盛事之一。

广东美术馆：是何机缘使您参与到此次项目？

GDMoA:What are the opportunities that allow you to participate in the project?

安琪莉可·斯班尼克：我不清楚您所谓的契机具体是指什么，但请允许我解释一下我为什么会有兴趣加入第六届广州三年展的策展团队。主要原因是，在我担任荷兰埃因霍温MU艺术中心的馆长和策展人的十三年里，我一直都在跟国际艺术家、设计师以及其他国际伙伴合作，合作的形式主要是共同策展或内容共享。除此之外，我还在过去六年时间里连续三届担任STRP创新科技双年展的总监和创意负责人，该展览是欧洲具有高创新水准的艺术科技盛事之一。不久前结束了STRP的工作后，我得以在更遥远的彼岸探索更多的可能性。而在中国的工作，就我在北京、西安和深圳参与项目的感受来说，是越来越有意思了。所以当第六届广州三年展邀请我出一个策展方案的时候，我马上就来了兴趣，也因为我了解到本届三年展将边界扩展到数字艺术、生物艺术和设计研究等领域，这些都是我尤为热衷的领域，而且在我看来，它们都是当下最具创新性的文化领域。

Angelique Spaninks：I don't really get know what you mean with opportunities, but let me explain why I was interested in joining the sixth Guangzhou Triennial team as a curator. Main reason is that at MU, the art space I run as director and curator for 13 years already, I always work with international artists and designers and with international partners. Most of these are co-producing projects, or content collaborations. Next to that I ran STRP Biennial for creative technology, one of the main art& tech events with a high level of producing new work in Europe,as director and creative leader for three editions over the past six years. The latter I had just stopped which opened up the possibility to explore more distant shores and working in China has been more and more fascinating to me as I contributed to projects in Beijing, Xi'an and Shenzhen. So when I was invited to make a curatorial proposal for the Sixth Guangzhou Triennial I was immediately interested, also because I understood the aim was to stretch the boundaries into digital art, bio-art and design research, all fields I feel strongly about as to me these are the most innovative fields in culture right now.

广东美术馆：本届广州三年展以“诚如所思：加速的未来”为主题，这个题目是如何确定的，该如何理解？试图通过这个主题探讨什么问题？

GDMoA:The 6th edition of Guangzhou Triennial titled As We May Think, Feedforward，how to determine this topic, how to understand? What's the problem the subject tries to explore?

安琪莉可·斯班尼克：该主题引自美国科学家范内瓦·布什（Vannevar Bush）的一篇文章，布什在二十世纪中叶就设想了一款能存储和读取全世界所有知识的设备，他称之为“扩展存储器”（Memex）。今天，我们称其为台式电脑、笔记本电脑乃至手机等，一切具有知识搜索能力的数码设备都可以视为“扩展存储器”。当年布什的大胆想象很快就成为了现实，这也让我们更有底气去超越现存的思想边界，创造性地去想象未来的需要。

Angelique Spaninks：The title refers to an essay by Vannevar Bush, an American scientist, who speculated in the middle of the 20th century on the storage and accessibility of all knowledge in the world in a device he called the Memex. We now call it a computer or a laptop or even a mobile phone, as long as these digital machines make it possible to search all knowledge. What Bush dared to imagine back then has become reality quite fast and it underlines the way we should try to think beyond the boundaries of what is here already and creatively imagine what the future needs.

在此我要强调，是“未来的需要”，不是我们的需要，因为我觉得我们不应该再像从启蒙运动和工业革命以来那样只是考虑到我们自己，一直都以我们人类自己为中心。我想是时候该跳出人类自我的框框，去关心我们生存的环境、我们周围的生物和物质世界以及不仅作为人类还作为万物栖居之所的地球。副标题“加速的未来”是受到马克·汉森（Mark Hansen）的一本书的启发，书中他说到媒体已经成为我们生活的一部分，是我们体验世界的必经之路。媒体让我们能够以非人类中心主义的视角来看世界，能增进并拓宽我们的意识和感官。

I explicitly say here 'what the future needs' and not what we need, as I think we should not only think for ourselves and be as anthropocentric as we have become since the enlightenment and industrial revolution. I think it is time we think beyond ourselves too, and consider the environment we live in, the living and material world that surrounds us, the earth as a habitat not only for humans but for all. The Feedforward subtitle is inspired by a book written by Mark Hansen in which he states media are no longer separate from us but have become inescapable in our experience of the world. They contribute to our abilities to look at the world in a non-anthropocentric way and can help sharpen and broaden our consciousness and senses.

对我而言，这两条思想脉络不会造成任何的困扰，它们都是我想要探索并通过的认知通道和入口，不是要寻求某个特定的具体对象，而是为了寻求而寻求——寻求通向明天和未来的道路。而且我想有很多艺术家和设计师都已经在做着同样的事情了，他们能让我们看到常规的边界之外的世界，我对他们所提出的问题以及进行的一些结合一向都抱有浓厚的兴趣，这些结合常常是和思想开明的科学家、研究员和作家联袂开展的，极富魄力。

These two strains of thoughts to me are not problematic at all, they are gateways, doors of perception, that I want to explore and go through not in search of something in particular but in search of searching our way towards tomorrow and beyond. And I think there are many artists and designers working on exactly this, who can help us see beyond common boundaries, and I am always interested in the questions they raise and the combinations they dare to make, often in close collaboration with openminded scientists, researchers and writers. 

广东美术馆：您将策划的是第二部分“同类演化”，可否阐述一下该题目的含义以及您的策展思路？

GDMoA:You will curate the second part Evolutions of Kin，please explain the meaning of the title and your curatorial line of thought.

安琪莉可·斯班尼克：在“同类演化”中，我的关注点就是演化（又称“进化”）和同类关系，但不是把二者作为生物学现象或社会现象来进行研究，而是作为描述与发展和联系相关的两个概念。万物相互关联的概念是许多文化都信仰且经验到的一种强烈的感觉。而这种连通性在数字革命以后呈现为一种新的面貌。互联网以其独特的方式实现了全球范围的互联。同时，得益于生物技术的迅猛发展，我们变得更倾向于用新的进化角度来思考问题。这些领域的技术进步成果也越来越多地融入我们的日常生活，影响着我们的生活和文化，然而，我们却很少深入地思考或探讨过这一切。通过聚集这样一批以这些技术进步作为艺术探索起点的艺术家和设计师，我有意引导人们去思考和探讨相关的问题和未来发生在他们眼前的各种未来情景。我希望大家的思考不仅止于美术馆之内，更应该延续到展馆之外，甚至在看报纸在上网的时候，都会有所触动。而同类关系的概念我觉得更为重要。我很荣幸从启迪心智的思想家唐娜·哈拉维（Donna Haraway）的书中援引了这个概念，她所谓的“同类”不仅或完全不是在指代家族或血缘关系，而是指所有人类与非人类之间的互相关联以及在此时此地对这种互联的觉知。我们或许遥想了太多的未来，却没有真正地融入到当下。“我们需要在一个有厚度的当下创造具有新式关联谱系的同类关系，为联结彼此的命运而进行磨合。……要么我们同生，要么一起毁灭。”（译注：本句出自《Staying with the Trouble, Making Kin in the Chthulucene》一书）我所邀请参展的所有艺术家一直以来都是以这种思路来创作的，他们敢于结合不同寻常的东西，敢于开展意料之外的合作。

Angelique Spaninks：With Evolutions of Kin I focus on evolution and kinship, both not as biological or societal phenomena per se, but as concepts for development and connection. The concept of everything being connected is a strong sensation, many cultures believe in and experience. And this connectedness has taken on a new form by the digital revolution.The internet makes the worldwide connection possible in its own way. Biotechnology and its fast development is also making us sensitive to thinking in new evolutionary ways. And the results of the scientific and technological enhancements in these fields become more and more part of our daily lives and influence our life and culture but we seldom get to think or talk about it in depth. By bringing a group of artists and designers together who each have made these technological developments a starting point for their artistic research I do want to trigger people to think and talk about the issues and future scenarios that are created in front of them. In the context of the museum of course but also when they go back outside, when they read the papers and surf the internet. And the notion of kinship - which I gladly borrowed from the inspirational thinker Donna Haraway- is even more important I think. She uses Kin not only or better not at all for referencing family or bloodties, but for the interconnectedness of all humans and non-humans alike, and for being aware of that here, now. We may well think to much about the future without truly being part of the present. "The task is to make kin in lines of inventive connection as a practice of learning to live and die well with each other in a thick present. [...] We become with each other or not at all." All of the artists I asked to be part of this exhibition work in this line of thinking and dare to make extraordinary combinations and find unexpected collaborations.

广东美术馆：这一部分与主题展另外两部分之间是什么关系？

GDMoA:What is the relationship between this part and the other two parts?

安琪莉可·斯班尼克：另外两个部分更多地聚焦在数字化和机器存在的技术层面，即世人对科技的普遍印象。科技对文化、社会、经济乃至整个世界的影响再怎么强调也不为过，然而，它的伦理和哲学影响却不那么为人所知。当然，我发现，在学术圈外已经有越来越多的人对此感兴趣，但依然还有很多人有待我们去争取，我想，艺术家和设计师在这些问题的呈现上会带给我们别样的、甚至更有吸引力的转译方式。他们叙述故事、创造图像，我们就算没阅读过他们所依据的书籍和研究成果，也依然能从不同的层面来理解他们的作品。虽然，他们对技术的运用方式大多不同于行业内的运用方式，却也能带来对技术发展的局限的崭新的、批判性的洞察。通过这三个部分——无边际的机器思维、数字叠加中的生活以及在当下的生物技术现实中制造同类演化，我们能勾勒出一幅丰富而诗意的图景，呈现一个大多数当代艺术双年展和三年展还未触及的世界。

Angelique Spaninks：The other two parts focus more on the technological in its digital and machine presence - the way tech is more commonly considered. The impact of technology on culture, society, economy and the world in general cannot be overstated, but the ethical and philosophical implications of it are not that common for everyone. I do sense there is more and more interest in it also from outside of academia, but there is still a world to win and I think artists and designers have a different and perhaps more engaging way to translate these types of issues. They tell stories and create images we can understand on different levels, even without having to read all the books and research they are based on. And they often use technology in a different way than it is meant to be used by the industry, which also creates new and critical visions on the limitations in the development of technology. By bringing together boundless machine thinking, living within the digital stack and making kin with evolution in a biotech present, I think all together we sketch a rich and poetic vision that reaches beyond the practices most contemporary art biennials and triennials show.

广东美术馆：您是如何挑选艺术家的？请介绍几组比较特别的艺术家和作品。

GDMoA:How do you choose artists？Please introduce groups of particular artists and their works.

安琪莉可·斯班尼克：这次我邀请参展的艺术家多数是之前就合作过的，或者是MU艺术中心过去二十年间所构建的庞大网络的参与者，这是一个集艺术实践、思想体系和叙事线为一体的网络。在我看来，艺术界和设计界都是无时不在演变的庞大有机体，而每一个展览都是其中的一节新枝或一条新的神经，具有继续生长的可能性。在选择艺术家时，我当然首先得看他们的作品有没有同类演化的触角。这触角可以是各个层面的，明显的如阿恩·亨德里克斯（Arne Hendriks）的“神奇收缩人”项目、大卫·奥莱利（David O’Reilly）的《梦境之眼》和《麦格芬》杂志的装置《物品的生命》，隐晦的如夏洛特·贾维斯（Charlotte Jarvis）的《球体音乐》、西蒙妮·C·尼奎尔（Simone C. Niquille）的《安全措施》以及艾迪·瓦根克内希特（Addie Wagenknecht）的《物联网》。我的第二个考量标准，就是要达成一种多样性和性别上的平衡。当然我们知道作品质量是一个重要的尺度，但要是选到的是清一色全男性艺术家的阵容，那肯定就是我的判断有问题。这无异于在暗示女艺术家的作品的质量要逊色一些，但我们知道事实并非如此。所以我把这个标准看成一种策展意识，如果我们想让世界变得包容，有一个对所有人来说都更好的明天，那么这种意识是无论何时都不能忽视的。我的第三个标准是要展出艺术家最新或最近的作品，或者直接委托艺术家进行创作。我觉得，艺术家、策展人和艺术机构能够尽可能密切地进行合作，以此来推进创作并拓宽艺术的边界——探索艺术可以是什么，而非艺术就是什么，这是非常重要的，我们不能毫无顾虑地让艺术市场化，让艺术完全变成商品。可惜，由于三年展的时间和预算的关系，无法直接委托艺术家进行创作，所以我所挑选的大多是艺术家近期的作品。当然在筛选过程中，需要考虑的还有很多方面，有些需要靠直觉，有些需要看实际情况，但最终还是要从几百名艺术家及其作品中选出一个16位艺术家的均衡阵容，“同类演化”这个版块的阵容就是这样形成的。

Angelique Spaninks：For this presentation I mostly selected artists I have worked with before or who are part of the vast network of practices, themes and storylines that MU has built over 20 years. To me the art- and design worlds are vast organisms that move all the time and I think of each exhibition as a new branch or nerve that may grow further. Of course the first criterion was whether there is an evolution of kin aspect to the work. This can be on any level, obvious as in Arne Hendriks’ Incredible Shrinking Man project, in David O’Reilly's Eye of the Dream or in MacGuffin’s Marriage of Objects installation or more hidden as in Charlotte Jarvis' Music of the Spheres, Simone Niquille's Safety Measures and Addie Wagenknecht’s Internet of Things. Another criterion for me is to seek for a diverse and gendered balance in selecting. Of course quality of work is the main criterion, but if this leads for instance to an all male line up of artists there is something wrong in my opinion. It may suggest there is less quality in work made by women, which is definitely not true. So I consider it to be a curatorial awareness that needs to be considered at all time if we want the world to be inclusive and change for the better for everyone. And the third criterion for me would be to show new or recent work or even commission new work. I think it is important that artists, curators and institutions collaborate as close as possible to keep creating and stretching the limits of what art can be, not what it is, and not simply let the art market take over changing art into commodities.Unfortunately in the case of the Triennale it was not possible to commission due to time and budget, so there are mostly recent works in my selection.Obviously there are many more considerations involved in the whole process of selecting, some of which are intuïtive, others more practical, but eventually a long list of several hundreds of artists and works come down to a balanced selection of 16 like the ones brought together in Evolutions of Kin.

广东美术馆：技术伦理是一个经久不衰的话题，此次参展艺术家为我们提供了哪些新鲜的视角？

GDMoA:Technology ethics is an enduring topic, what fresh perspective artists provide to us?

安琪莉可·斯班尼克：我觉得，对于技术是什么，潜力如何，艺术家的视野要更为广博。他们对于进入市场或走出实验室的东西会发出不一样的疑问，他们会将技术潜在的其它属性通过自己的方式呈现出来。譬如，前不久我在MU策划了一个展览，参展的美籍华人艺术家Ani Liu就跟阿姆斯特丹一家大医院的放射科进行了一些合作。她用上了该科室所有的高科技成像仪器，包括MRI和FMRI，并跟科里的医生进行了深谈。医生通常使用这些仪器来读取病理信息以判断病因，而她却在影像中寻找所有让人成其为人的痕迹，譬如悲伤、爱还有情绪。她所提出的问题是，我们的行为能否被简化为运算法则、我们能否通过无机的整合来升级我们的身体？她也好奇我们的感觉能力能否在实验室里制造出来。对她来说，今天的技术创新——从网络化的修复术和人工智能到生命本身的基因密码——能让我们彻底重新设计自己。问题是，所有这些是否正在将我们带入一个“后人类”的状态？通过这次合作，医生们意识到他们习惯从单一维度来解读扫描，不过现在他们也能看到影像所代表的某个真实的人。对他们来说，这次合作打开了一条能与他们的工作结合的思路，从此可以为他们所用，所以他们欢迎更多的艺术家来跟他们合作。这只是一个例子——还有其他很多例子可以列举——证明艺术与科学的平等结合能带来重要的新见解和新输出，进而使得对未来的思考和设计更为深入和细致。

Angelique Spaninks： I think artists have a broad scope on what technology is and can be. They ask different questions of what comes to market or out of a laboratory and they think of ways to express those other properties technology can have. For instance I just opened an exhibition at MU in which Chinese-American artist Ani Liu collaborated with the radiology department of a mayor hospital in Amsterdam. She got to use all the MRI, FMRI and other hightech imaging machines they have and had in-depth talks with the doctors who usually read them in a pathological way seeking for anomalies. Ani however was seeking for sadness or love, emotions and other traces that make us human. She asked whether our behaviors can be reduced to algorithms and our bodies be upgraded with nonorganic integrations? She explores whether sentience itself can be manufactured in a lab. To her recent technological innovations allow us to redesign ourselves profoundly–from networked prosthetics and artificial intelligence, to the genetic code of life itself. Question is whether we are approaching a ‘posthuman’ state by all of this. And by doing this the doctors became aware of the one-dimensional way they look at their scans and suddenly got the human behind the image back in sight. For them this collaboration opened up a line of thinking they want to incorporate in their practice from now on, and they are inviting more artists to come and work with them. This is one of many examples in which the combination of art and science, set up on an equal level between the two parties, can bring about important new insights and outputs that may help think about and design for the future in a more entangled way.

广东美术馆：人脱离不了其所处的环境，如何能够从非人类的视角看待这个世界？

GDMoA:People can't get out of the environment，how to see the world from the perspective of non-human?

安琪莉可·斯班尼克：我们不用成为非人类，也能知道：对我们所在的生态系统而言，它们和人类一样珍贵和重要。当然，我们无法了解老鼠眼中世界是什么样的，也无法像树木或机器一样去体验世界。但我们可以诉诸想像，我们可以拥抱不同文化中的各种知识。如果你尝试过心注一处地去从一个物件或动物的视角去看世界，你会学到和体会到很多你躲在人类的界域中永远无法体会到的东西。这听起来或许像一个游戏，但却能成为转换个人意识的一种方式。我想，喜欢宠物或花卉的人都会有这样一种依恋。但其实这种依恋可以得到更深入的发展，更可向所有非人类的存在敞开。为何不试试？

Angelique Spaninks：You don't have to become non-human to be able to think of and see non-humans as just as valuable and important for the eco-system we live with. Of course we cannot see the world like mice or experience it as trees nor as machines. But we can imagine a lot and we can be open to other types of knowledge stemming from different cultures. If you try and see the world from an object’s or animal’s perspective and really throw yourself in it you will learn and experience a lot you will never experience when you stay on the safe side of the human realm. It may sound like a game, a play, but it can become a way of transforming your own awareness. I think pet- or flower lovers feel this attachment in a certain way. But it can be so much deeper and more open to all non-human entities. Just try it.

广东美术馆：如何平衡人类自身需求和非人类生命的需求？

GDMoA:How to balance human needs and non-human needs？

安琪莉可·斯班尼克：我觉得，尽管人类中心主义的世界观开启了人类世（人类自工业革命以来的活动对环境的影响可成立一个新地质时代的理论），但这个世界观并没有帮我们把这种平衡做好。不过幸好，活在这个人类世，我们还是有机会恢复人类与非人类的需求平衡的。这取决于我们自己，所以真正的问题是，这两种需求到最后是会并到一起还是依然这么泾渭分明？不过要是想大兴技术手段来修复，我认为不可行。我们应该再多些尝试和探讨，思考得更深入些，别让经济因素完全左右了那些至关重要的发展，而应该整合伦理道德、文化以及科学家和艺术家共同开展的控制实验。梅尔文·克兰兹伯格（Melvin Kranzberg）有这么一句名言：“技术既无好坏，亦非中立”。换言之，技术是什么完全取决于我们的观念。

Angelique Spaninks： I don't think we are balancing it well right now within our anthropocentric worldview which has created the Anthropocene as a result. But it is actually because we are living within this Anthropocene that creates the opportunity to restore the balance. It's up to us to find better balance between human and non-human needs, in fact it is the question whether these in the end are separate at all? But I don't think big scale techno fixes are the way to go. I think we should all try and talk more and think harder, not let the economy be all leading in the most important developments but incorporate ethics, culture and controlled experimentation by scientists and artists. Technology is not good or bad nor is it neutral, is a wise statement made by Melvin Kranzberg. Technology is what we make it to be.

广东美术馆：维护自身生存利益是生物本性，“同类演化”的最终目的是否仍是为了人的长久生存？

GDMoA:Safeguarding human's own interests is biological nature, is Evolutions of Kin's ultimate goal still for human to permanently exist?

安琪莉可·斯班尼克：是这样吗？那就是我们的工作没做到位了。我想，我们太倾向于将人类个体的需求看成一种生物学上的或情感上的必需，这种认知支撑着我们对经济利益的追求和短期的政治思维。这种狭隘的眼界只会限制我们探索个人私利之外的东西。我们不该太过执迷于不朽。人类会否永恒存续下去，这本就是个奇怪的问题。没什么东西会永远存在，一切都是变化不定的，生命和科技如此，地球和宇宙亦是如此。尽管未来似乎正向着我们所争取的方向发展，我们依然无法预测未来。但对我来说，跟当下以及主宰当下的套路打交道则更有趣，正因为我们无法预测未来，所以我们能够改变现在。

Angelique Spaninks： Is it? Then we are not doing a very good job, are we? I think we tend to see individual human needs too much as a biological or emotional given in which we are supported by economic profit and short term political thinking. It is our limited scope that is obstructing seeing beyond the individual. The model of permanent growth needs to be bent. Whether humans as we know ourselves today will permanently exist is a weird question. Nothing exists permanently, everything is always in flux, life and technology are dynamic and so is the earth and universe. We cannot predict the future even though that seems to be exactly what we strive for. But to me it is so much more interesting to be dealing more with the present and the patterns that rule right now and that we have the ability to change in light of this future we cannot predict.

广东美术馆：您是否有意通过这次展览影响更多人成为环境或动物保护主义者？

GDMoA:Do you intend to through this exhibition encourage more people to become environmentalists or animal protectionists?

安琪莉可·斯班尼克：我当然希望有越来越多的人能开始关心他们所生活的环境和其他共同存在的物种，我也知道这都取决于他们自己。如果他们能将心比心，用心关怀，他们就会繁盛，反之，他们就会堕落。这并不是说大家都要成为激进分子，毕竟激进往往会把人推向火坑和无知。只是，既然我们已经有如此多同道之人，我们每个人都很应该至少试着为世界发一点光和热，将来会有更多的人加入我们。

Angelique Spaninks：I think it is important that as many people as possible become aware of the environment they live in and the other species they live with and that it is up to them how they treat them. If they treat them well - like they would like to be treated themselves - they thrive, if not they deteriorate. It is not at all about everyone becoming an activist because often activism ends up in radicality and blind spots too. But it is important that each and everyone at least tries to contribute to a better world since we are so many all together and we will become even more in the years to come.