夏：听说你很年轻就去德国，一待就是20年，我对你的经历比较好奇，年轻时的你是什么样子？

　　文：梦想当大艺术家，跑到北京来考中央美院没考上，没钱，到处跑，还曾趴火车从兰州到中国美术馆看劳森伯展览。

　　Xia: I heard you went to Germany at very young age and stayed there for twenty years. I am quite curious about your experience. How were you like when you were young?

　　Wen: I dreamt to be a big-name artist. While I failed to get enrolled in the Central Academy of Fine Arts in Beijing, I traveled around with no money. I used to hide in a train to visit the exhibition of Robert Rauschenberg in the National Art Museum of China.

　　夏：那时候年纪多大？

　　文：才十几岁，高中还没毕业呢。

　　Xia: How old were you?

　　Wen: I was only a teenager; hasn't even graduated from high school.

　　夏：那你消息还挺灵通的，从兰州跑到北京看劳森伯展。

　　文：对呀，其实那是一个挺奇怪的时代。

　　Xia: You had quite good access to information then; came all the way to Beijing from Lanzhou to see the Rauschenberg exhibition.

　　Wen: Right. That was actually a pretty weird era.

　　夏：那时候，你看劳森伯的展览，当时对你有什么触动？

　　文：看了劳森伯的展览，吓了我一跳，很刺激。

　　Xia: Back then, when you saw the exhibition of Rauschenberg, did it somehow touch you?

　　Wen: The Rauschenberg exhibition scared me. It was very exciting.

　　夏：我看到很多人的回忆，跟你一样惊讶。

　　文：那时候给我带来一种动力，想知道国外是什么这样子？想出去。

　　Xia: I've seen many people's memories, they were just as excited.

　　Wen: At that time, it gave me a sort of motivation to learn how foreign countries are like. It made me want to go out.

　　夏：你在国内上美院了吗？

　　文：没有上，其实是没考上。

　　Xia: Did you go to an art academy in China?

　　Wen: No. Actually it was because I couldn't pass the exam.

　　夏：然后直接去的德国上学？

　　文：是的，也不知道怎么回事，就糊里糊涂考上了杜塞尔多夫艺术学院。

　　Xia: Then you went to school in Germany?

　　Wen: Yes. I couldn't figure out how it happened but I got enrolled in the Kunstakademie Düsseldorf.

　　夏：你怎么开始学习画画的？

　　文：从小喜欢，十二岁开始暑假报学习班，想考美院附中，天天晚上跑到火车站画头像，那时候挺勤奋的，骑个自行车，披着长头发，模仿大画家的样子。记得上初中一年级的时候，我们有一个美术老师，每次他还没画完的时候，我觉得最好看，过两天再去看，他画了许多遍，画的很细，我就失望了。我喜欢粗狂一点。呵呵，可能年少吧，挺狂妄的。当然这只是一种萌芽状态，没有一种判断力，很感性。

　　Xia: How did you start to learn to paint?

　　Wen: I liked painting as a Child. I went to summer classes since 12 years old because I wanted to go to the affiliated high school of the central academy of fine arts. I stayed in train station every evening to paint head portraits. I worked quite hard at that time; rode a bike and ware long hair like an important painter. I remembered when I was at the first year in junior high school, there was a art teacher whose work I fund the best everytime when he hadn't finished. After a couple days when I revisited his work, he'd already painted many times and has became very detailed, I'd then be disappointed. I liked paintings to be bit wild. Maybe because I was young and presumptuous. Of course it was kind of sprouting moment; there wasn't any force of judgment but rather sensational.

　　夏：在兰州的时候，你身边的有没有一些一起画画的人，那里艺术家好像不是很多。

　　文：艺术家有一些，各种各样的影响都有一点，但表面的东西多些，也没有好好的训练过。对艺术真正的认识是到德国以后，花了很多时间看美术馆，看画廊。刚到杜塞尔多夫艺术学院的时候，觉得很神圣，可以说当时是很崇拜。客观说，它给了我太多的影响。

　　Xia: When you were in Lanzhou, were there other people you painted together? It doesn't seem to have many artists over there.

　　Wen: There were some artists from whom I was influenced a little. But those influences were rather superficial. There weren't any good training either. My true understanding of art was generated after I went to Germany and spent loads of time in art museums and galleries. When I first arrived in the Kunstakademie Düsseldorf, I felt sacred. I admired it at that time. Objectively, it had gave me so much influences.

　　夏：刚到德国的时候，也是常去打工？

　　文：打过，什么工都打过，那时候叫洋插队。也到街上画过头像，在欧洲很多城市画，比如在巴黎，当时一起在街头画画的还有王度、陈箴等，还有很多其他的艺术家。听说现在不能画了，都几十年了。

　　Xia: Did you work when you first arrived in Germany?

　　Wen: Yes, all kinds of work. It was called "foreign-rusticating". I also sat in street corners to paint portraits in many European cities like Paris. Artists including Wang Du and Chen Zhen were with me painting in the streets, among others. I heard you can no longer paint in the streets anymore. That was decades ago.

　　夏：这都是你进大学之前的事？

　　文：是的。

　　Xia: That was before you went to college?

　　Wen: Yes.

　　夏：在国外待下来，跟国内最不同的有哪些？。

　　文：上学之前都是模糊的。上学以后，五花八门，挺舒服的。觉得世界上搞艺术的人更多了，作品更自由了。

　　Xia: Compare with the life in foreign country and in China, what was the most different aspects?

　　Wen: It was rather blur before the college. After the college, there were so many different approaches. I felt comfortable. I felt there were more people work in art in the world. And my work were more free.

　　夏：主要是人自由。

　　文：当时那个学生时代让我回忆起来是非常的自由，非常的快乐，前前后后上了也六七年。

　　Xia: Mainly, one as a person feels free there.

　　Wen: The student era made me feel very free and happy. I stayed in collage for more or less six to seven years.

　　夏：你的大学怎么那么长？

　　文：我是本硕连读，本科之后读的是学校的大师班，德国上学是免费的，时间也长点。

　　Xia: How come the college took so long?

　　Wen: I continued my Masters' after Bachelors' degree. After undergraduate study, I went to the Master's classes in the school. The German education is for free and it also takes longer.

　　夏：他们的教学是很自由很开放的。

　　文：是，工作室制，教授一般都是一个礼拜来一次，有的甚至一个月来一次，以前很多大师在那里，博伊斯去世之后还有其他的大师在那里授课，比如里希特，库奈里斯。还有白南准，他在纽约有工作室，一个学期来两次，或者把学生都召集到纽约工作室住着啊，玩儿啊。吕培尔茨上课就和学生踢足球。学校大门口地上镶嵌的大铜字写着“艺术无法教，没法学”。据说这是第一任院长写的，两百多年了。我觉得这个很有意思。

　　Xia: Their teaching is very free and open.

　　Wen: Yes, it's the studio style. Professors usually visit once per week, sometimes even only once per month. There used to be many Masters teaching there. After Joseph Beuys passed away, there were other masters, including Gerhard Richter and Jannis Kounellis. Also Nam June Paik. He had a studio in New York and would visit twice every semester. Or he would organize students to live in his New York studio. Lots of fun. When Markus Lüpertz was teaching, he'd play football with students. There were big copper words graved on the ground at the entrance to the school: Art can't be taught, can't be learnt. Says it was written by the first dean of the school from 200 years ago. I find it's interesting.

　　夏：是的，这个跟国内艺术教育确是很大不同。

　　文：学校对我的艺术创作影响巨大。尤其是老师的教育方法，对学生很宽松，越是宽松，我们这些学生越是认真，对自己要求越高，各自都有自己的想法，暗暗较劲。没有上课下课的概念，自己画自己的。期间也有一些画廊的人来看，有时候会做一些展览或合作。

　　Xia: Yes, that is indeed very different from art education in China.

　　Wen: This school has tremendously influenced my art creating. Especially as the teaching methods were very loose, students worked even harder when the terms were looser. We required more from ourselves, secretly competed with each other. There weren't the concept of in or out of classes. We worked on our own paintings. Sometime there'd be people from galleries came visit. Sometime there would be some exhibitions or cooperation.

　　夏：那你在上学期间也属于半工半读？

　　文：是，学费是免费，但生活费得自理，自己解决温饱问题。所以自己还是要找点有收入的事。在国外，画画材料特贵。吕佩尔茨说，“绘画是奢华”。好像陈丹青也说过，“在国外有了第二次做人的壮举”，初到国外，一切都很难。

　　Xia: Did you take part-time jobs during your studies?

　　Wen: Yes. Although the tuitionswere for free, I had to take care of the living costs and solve the need to eat. I had to look for works with some kind of incomes. The painting materials were very expensive in foreign countries. Lüpertz says painting is luxury. I think Chen Danqin also said thatin foreign country,one would have the second heroic undertaking to raise himself. Everything was difficult when you first lived in overseas.

　　夏：我看到你这个作品里面，因为谈到比如说你跟你导师学习，你导师画的时候用的是厚颜料？

　　文：对。

　　Xia: I noticed in your works, you mentioned you learnt from your mentor, did your mentor use impasto?

　　Wen: Yes.

　　夏：所以你作品跟你导师之间还是有一定关系的？

　　文：当时一个20岁的小伙子，可能最重要的也是模仿。可是不久就开始试着去质疑去否定，其实现在的创作也是不停地否定我自己。

　　Xia: So your works still have some connection with your mentor?

　　Wen: As a boy in his twenties, it perhaps was most important to imitate. But soon, I started to try to question and to deny. Actually, till today, my creation is about constantly denying myself.

　　夏：对，都经历过这个过程。

　　文：对，比如说我们那个时候都是大幅，我特犯愁，没钱还要画大画，又大又厚，说到这，有个故事不得不提，是我听说的。有人去美术馆偷名画，偷来原作之后就在原作上再画三层同样的画，之后悄悄地挂回原处，转告馆长是假画，不信用高科技，高科技只看到前三层，第四层是看不到的，果然被断定是假画，赶紧低价处理。偷画的人洗掉上面三层颜色后用便宜的价格买来了合法的名画。哈哈，这个故事对我后来切割作品系列是有启发的，至少对作品形式。

　　Xia: Yes, many have been through this process.

　　Wen: Yes. For instance, we were painting big frame work at that time. I was really worried. I had no money but I needed to paint big painting -- big and thick. Speaking of which, I have to mention a story which I heard from other people. It says someone had stolen a famous paining from a museum. And he painted three layers of the same picture on top of the origin; he then brought the painting back to the same place secretly. Afterwards, he let the museum curator knew the painting was a fake and the curator should use high-technology to test it. The kind of high-tech could only detect three layers but not the forth. The painting was determined fake eventually and was sold in low price. The theft spent very low price to buy the legitimate painting. He only needed to wash away the three layers. This story inspired my work of the cutting series, at least in terms of the form.

　　夏：其实在绘画中，颜料本身也是用来造“假”的，也是虚假的，艺术家用它来叙说“真实”的东西。

　　文：我每天一遍一遍重复地画同一张画，画的非常厚，前边的都成为过去、历史，你将再也看不到原来的它，当我把它再切开的时候，背后的那种虚假性和绘画的技巧性，都得到一种破坏，得到一种新的反思，慢慢地我有了新的兴趣。

　　Xia: Actually in painting, the pigment itself is to create "fake" and is also vain. Artists use it to tell some "real" stuff.

　　Wen: Everyday, I repeatedly paint on the same picture and paint it thick. The beginning becomes the past, the history. One can no longer see the original version. When I then cut it open, the sense of vanity and the skills implied in the painting went through a kind of damage. Thus it gained a new form of rethinking. Slowly, I have had some new interests.

　　夏：但在一开始实验的时候，直接切割，破坏了作品的绘画性，视觉效果会不会显得太机械化或者很乱，缺少了手工涂抹颜料的温度？

　　文：是的，从前的语言都消失了，这反而给我带来了更多的兴趣，不光是一味地把一张画去画厚，当然它只是个手段而已。但是当我去切它的时候，我发现了实践上的问题，这也给我艺术观念上提出了新的问题。怎么切的问题，切开的是什么？是不是有新的视觉性？

　　Xia: But at the beginning of this experiment, when you directly cut through and destroyed the painting, would the visual effect rather mechanical or chaotic? It then lacks the temperature from handmade coloring process?

　　Wen: Yes, the old language all disappeared. This on the country made me more interested in the cutting. It's not only about making a picture thick, which certainly was merely a mean. But when I go ahead and cut it through, I find the problem of realizing such practice, which also raise new questions to my art vision. It's a question of how to cut and what has been cut through? Is there a new form of visual?

　　夏：所以你把颜料冰冻起来。

　　文：后来我让工人做一个很大的冰库，零下30度，我再把画完的画放进去速冻，虽然油画颜料大部分都油，可是这些油的物理成分有很多的水，那么拿出来在短暂的时候它是硬的，我再切它。

　　Xia: That's why you freeze the pigment.

　　Wen: I later had workers built a huge ice house with temperature as low as negative 30 degrees. I then quick-freeze finished painting in this ice house. Although most part of pigment are oil, still a lot of water are the physical element of these oil. Therefore, in a short moment after you take it out from the ice house, it is hard. I then cut it.

　　夏：如果你全是“冰块”的话，切出来会太机械化，但是现在切出来的视觉效果不错，像是手工制作的，你是怎么做到的？

　　文：我也并不想把它作为完全依赖机器的过程，我想（赏识）尝试着找到一种手工性和机械性的对抗，一种矛盾和冲突。同时切又是再创作，切割的时候，我和助手会把画推来推去，让刀来回切割深一点浅一点，它会有一些不一样的结构和不同的节奏。

　　Xia: If it would be entirely "iced", the cutting would seem to be too mechanic, but the visual effect now seems quite good and look more like handmade, how did you manage that?

　　Wen: I also didn't want it to be entirely machine dependent process. I want to try to find the fight between handcraft and mechanism -- a kind of contradictory and conflict. Meanwhile, the cutting itself is also re-creating. During the cutting, my assistant and I would move the paintings to make the knife cut in different depth. It will then have some different structures and rhythms.

　　夏：某种意义上说，你发现了属于你自己个性化的新的绘画方法。

　　文：呵呵，有人说，当代艺术在某种意义上像是狗撒尿，像个性化地占地盘。我确实一直在尝试找到新的语言、新的方法，当然这个也是一步一步走过来的，我觉得这个方法跟我的经历有关，跟我的性格和思维方式以及关注点是分不开的。

　　Xia: In a sense, you have found a personalized new painting method of your own.

　　Wen: Some people say contemporary art, to an extant, is like dogs peeing, thus claiming their territories via personalization. I indeed has always been trying to find new language and new methods. This has came to me stage by stage. I think this method has to do with my experience and is inseparable from my personality, way of thinking and my focuses.

　　夏：这确实是你的创新，但是切什么也是你面临的问题。

　　文：对，你说的很对，回国后我一直在寻找如何用我的语言言说中国的事情，时空不同，艺术的内容也肯定会有所变化。

　　Xia: This indeed is your innovation. But another problem for you is what to cut.

　　Wen: Yes, you're absolutely right. I've been searching ways to speak about China in my language after I returned to China. The time and space is different, so is the content of the art.

　　夏：其实像我的职业，策展人，也要主动，跟艺术家也一样，去“创作”跟这个时代、跟这个社会有关系的“作品”，即有意义的展览。这么多年中国也变化的很大，自身的问题特别多，艺术家和策展人都应该去发现问题，提出问题，发表看法，当代艺术早就不是审美范畴的事儿，它属于整个社会、文化，它可以关心一切也应该去关心一切。

　　文：理所当然，中国仍然是被称为发展中国家，艺术的发展也会被社会推崇。要真正了解或探讨这种变化的含义其实非常难。

　　Xia: Actually my own profession as curator also need to take the initiative to "create" works that connect with this age and society, i.e., meaningful exhibitions. All these years, China has changed a lot and has many of its own problems. Artists and curators all need to find questions, raise questions and express their opinions. Contemporary art has long not only belong in the realm of aesthetic, it belongs to the entire society and culture. It could care about everything and it should.

　　Wen: Naturally. China is still called developing country. The development of art is also promoted in the society. Yet it's actually very hard to understand or discuss the meanings of these changes.

　　夏：回到作品，看你的作品，90年代时候有点具象，颜料也不是很厚，后来是越来越厚，中间也有一些其他尝试，以及近来更厚之后的切割。我看到你在德国时期的几个作品，里面充满了自己的情绪，艺术家在创作上无论如何都不能摆脱心里的困境的影响，否则做出的作品也是空洞的。从你的作品中，可以猜想你在德国时候的困惑。

　　文：开始切割实验是对我自己和作品起了很大的延伸，颠覆自我。被切开会是怎样？我把它切开，不让它再厚，厚作为我的工具，当然这其中还有一些其他的灵感和暗示。在不同的时期都有不同的困境。画画过程并不轻松，有时会非常艰难，也非常焦虑。

　　Xia: Let's go back to your work. During the 90s, your work seemed was figurative and the figmentswere not very thick. Later on, they have became more and more thick. There were other experiments, including the cutting series after the paintings get much thicker. I see some of your work from Germany were full of your own emotions. Artists can never get rid of the influence from emotional difficulties, otherwise the work would be empty. From your work, I could guess your confusions in Germany.

　　Wen: The beginning of the cutting experiment is a tremendous extension of my work and myself. It truly overturns myself. What would it be when you cut it out? I cut it so it's no longer thick. Thickness becomes my tool. Of course, in this period, there were other inspirations and hints. There are different difficulties in different periods. The process of painting isn't easy. Some time it'd be tough. Also very anxious.

　　夏：现在你回到国内时间不长，但好像你适应能力还非常强。

　　文：我们那时候出去，不断的要适应，我们回来以后中国又变了，又重新开始适应。

　　Xia: It has not been a long time since you came back to China. It seems you have a strong capacity to adapt.

　　Wen: People went out from China at that time need to constantly adapt. Now when we come back, China has changed and it's adapting all over again.

　　夏：从你的作品图录看到，你的切割的作品是从06年开始的，不过数量很少。

　　文：一幅画要画到可以切的地步常常需要两三个月的时间，有时候没有切好，画就废了，前功尽弃。到现在留下来的数量的确不多。

　　Xia: From your category, your cutting series started from 2006 but the number was very few by then.

　　Wen: To paint a piece to the point that allows me to cut would usually require two to three months. Sometimes if the cutting wasn't successful, the painting had to be abolished. All the work went vain. Till today, there hasn't been a lot of them left.

　　夏：但是回国之后，我发现你在方法上越来越得熟练，技术上的程序也越来越完整，而且也花了更多精力集中在这个系列的创作。

　　文：回国后，大部分时间都在做这个系列作品，也不像在德国那样生活节奏非常有秩序，生活工作更随意一些。另外，在中国什么事情都是“快”，做事效率也很高，于是我的“切割机”很快就实验出来了，也无形中也给了我更多时间去思考。

　　Xia: But after you came back to China, I realized your technical has became more and more mature. The procedure has became more and more completed. And you've also spent more energy in this series.

　　Wen: After I come back, most of my time are used in this series. My life is no longer as systematic as in Germany. Life and work have been more flexible. Besides, in China, everything is for the sake of "fast". Great efficiency. So my "cutting machine" has soon been experimented. It actually has also offered me more time to think.

　　夏：具体说，你回到国之后，你的绘画题材上有没有一个变化，或者有一个什么思考？

　　文：触景生情，呵呵。回国后我确实看到了一些跟以前想象的不一样的东西，很多问题。有些东西我自己也在慢慢琢磨，让它们在我的作品中慢慢去呈现。作为艺术家，我觉得对问题的切入点比解决问题本身更重要，当然，每个人都有自己的关注点，我也一样，我会用自己的语言逐渐地关联起中国的社会现实。

　　Xia: Specifically, since you come back to China, has there a thematically change or thinking in your paintings?

　　Wen: The sight stirs up my feelings. After came back to China, I indeed saw things that are different from my imagination and there are a lot of problems. Some of them I am slowly pondering and let them slowly being reflected in my work. As an artist, I think the perspective of a problem is more important than solving a problem. Of course, every one has their own focus. I am the same. I will use my own language to gradually connect with China's social reality.

　　夏：你的简历上，对旅居国外期间的展览似乎没有怎么写。

　　文：我这几年的作品有很大的改变，之前在国外的很多小展览，也没啥意义，我觉得没必要写。现在我的简历上写的都是回国后的新的展览。

　　Xia: In your resume, you seemed not mentioning exhibitions during your overseas staying?

　　Wen: My work has changed very much in the past couple of years. It is not meaningful to list many small exhibitions overseas. I feel it's not necessary to list them. Now my resume contains new exhibitions after I return to China.

　　夏：从你早期作品到现在，我能看到你整个创作过程是很真实的，跟你的经历息息相关。这个信息爆炸的时代，偶像和永恒都被摧毁了。每个独立行走的人，都有自己的生存策略，艺术家也不例外。但是仅仅从作品看，如我之前说的，你还是个老实人。情绪，以及你对艺术技法和观念的思考都反映在作品上。你做了很多实验，在做切割系列之前有《向方塔纳致敬》和向你的导师致敬，这可以看作你反叛过去的节点。

　　还有个问题，在德国这么多年，文化差异的冲突，有没有在你的作品里，我很想听听你自己的看法。

　　文：我是出生在甘肃，祖籍山东的德国海归，文化差异和我息息相关，真是感触很多。我出国比较早，80年代末，90年代初那个时候的德国和我们差距非常大，那时候我是坐火车去德国的，“东方特快列车”横穿欧亚大陆，从北京到莫斯科经波兰到柏林，再到科隆。刚去的时候因为语言的问题总是觉得自己是客人，客随主便吧，好像进不去那种文化之中，无法融入，这个是一个痛苦的经历。

　　文化差异，种族的差异，移民的变更，是最大的的体现。那个时候在国外都看不到什么中文报纸，更别提中文书了。你唯一交的朋友就是寥寥无几的几个中餐馆的大厨，还可能都是香港人，或者越南华侨，语言也不怎么通顺。语言的障碍让你茫然一直生活在一种矛盾中。文化差异处处可见，当你看书的时候，他们很好奇我们的汉字是这个样子，这时候文化差距就产生了，就是这么表面这么直接。当然随着时间变化我也慢慢入乡随俗了，“在罗马像罗马人吧”。现在反而觉得倒轻松了。

　　我使用切割的语言，也是要切开这些裂痕，当然在作品里会自然的流露。

　　Xia: Since your earlier work till today, I can see your entire creating process has been very real and closely connected with your experience. In this information explosion era, icon and eternity has been destroyed. Every single walking person has their own surviving strategy. Artists are no exception. But merely from the work, as I said, you are still an honest person. Emotions and your rethinking of artistic skills and opinions are all reflected in your work. You've done many experiments, before the cutting series, there is the "salute to Lucio Fontana" and the salute to your mentor. They can be seen as junctures of your rebellion. I have one question, as you lived in Germany for all these years, were there cultural crashes reflected in your work? I want to hear your own thoughts.

　　Wen: I was born in Gansu with ancestral origin in Shandong, a returned oversea Chinese from Germany. Cultural crasheshave everything to do with me. I have many mixed feelings. I went to overseas quite early. Germany in late 80s and early 90s was much more advanced than China. I went to Germany by train. The Oriental Express traveled through Eurasian continent, from Beijing to Moscow to Poland to Berlin, then Cologne. When I first arrived, because of the language problem, I always felt like a guest. A guest who suits the host's needs. It seemed I couldn't enter the culture. Not able to join the culture was a painful experience.

　　Cultural difference, racial difference, the changes by immigrations are the outstanding representation. Back then, I couldn't even get Chinese newspapers, needless to say Chinese books. My only friends would be chefs from a few Chinese restaurants, most like from Hong Kong or overseas Chinese from Vietnam. Languages weren't fluent with them neither. The language barriers made you blandly living in a sense of contradictories. Cultural differences were everywhere. When I was reading and people were curious about Chinese characters, the cultural gap has formed. It was as superficial and direct as that. Of course, along with the time I slowly joint the culture. "In Rome, act like a Roman." Now everything has been quite easy.

　　My language of cutting is also to cut these gaps, which are naturally flowing in the work.

　　夏：你在国外整整20年，这些年的变化看起来是非常大。

　　文：20年很短暂也很复杂，是戏剧性的。做艺术也是，当然戏剧性变化的背后是很认真的一个问题。

　　Xia: You spent an entire twenty years in overseas. Changes over these years are huge.

　　Wen: Twenty years are also short and complicated. It's theatrical. Same for working in art. Of course, what's behind the dramatic changes is a very serious question.

　　夏：其实你现在的新作品就是你对文化差异、内心矛盾的一种外在表现。机械的理性操作和想要呈现的艺术形式之间的平衡，也是你的一种诉求。不过，接下来，我也很期待看到你的切割机对准的新东西是什么。

　　文：最有趣的就是这个“东西”。中国可切的东西太多了，哈哈。

　　Xia: Actually, your new work now is a kind of external manifestation of the cultural differences and internal conflicts. The balance between mechanical and rational operation and the expected art form, it is also your ask. However, in the future, I also look forward to see what's the new target of your "cutting machine".

　　Wen: The most interesting part is the "thing". There are too many things to be cut through in China.