采访者：杭春晓(中国艺术研究院博士、批评家)

　　被访者：张羽

　　整理者：原志阳

　　访谈地点：张羽北京蟹岛西艺术空间工作室A023

　　访谈时间：2009、4、6

　　Interview by Hang Chunxiao (PhD, China Academy of Art), critic

　　Interviewing Zhang Yu

　　Collated by Yuan Zhiyang

　　Place: Zhang Yu’s Studio, A023, Xiedao West Art Space, Beijing

　　Date: 6 April 2009

　　杭：从上个世纪80年代开始，到90年代您成为实验水墨的代表，这期间作品发生了裂变，而这个裂变的诉求点在哪里?

　　Hang: You started out in the 1980s and had become by the 1990s a representative figurehead of experimental ink-and-wash. During this period, your works have manifested some disjunctions. What were the points that made these disjunctions necessary?

　　张：因为我是从传统水墨中走出来的，实际上一直在自我突围，为建构一个系统或者说建构一个个人表达系统而自我突围。这背后实际上有两个线路：一个是创作方法上的，另一个是理论上的。创作方法的探求是关键，而其后的理论建构需要不断的梳理和深入。作为艺术家，思考用何种方式表达与东方文化身份、东方思维相关，是多年来的一个诉求。当拥有了自己的创作方法，理论上的梳理是极为重要的。

　　Zhang: Because I started in traditional ink-and-wash, I have in fact been engaged in a continuous personal breaking out with the purpose of constructing a system, or rather of constructing a personal system of expression. Two background lines led to this. One was about creative method. The other was about theory. The quest for a creative method is the key thing, but the subsequent theoretical construction requires continuous sorting out and deepening. For me as an artist, the consideration of which format to use to convey the connection with Eastern cultural identity and Eastern thought is a quest that has taken many years. Once one possesses one’s own creative method, it becomes extremely important to sort out one’s theory.

　　杭：沿着从学理到创作方法的的转变，您实现了作品从早期注重形式抽象到水墨作为媒介实现东方化的一个视角、判断来做作品。在如此的转换过程中，出现了你作品中以指印为绘画语言的中心元素。而在这样一种行为方式、思考方式中，指印是一个最具内容填充的抽象符号。但“指印”在你早期的作品中就曾经出现过，对此，您是怎样看待的?

　　Hang: During the transformation from academic theory to creative method, you have managed to move from your early-period emphasis on formal abstraction, to making ink-and-wash serve as a medium through which to realize an Easternized visual angle and judgment in the creation of your works. In this process of transformation, fingerprints have emerged as the central element of the pictorial language in your works. In this performance format, and in this thought format, fingerprints are an abstract sign that is full of content. Yet fingerprints already appeared in works of your early period. What is your view of this?

　　张：我的早期作品除了在语言方式和表达心里上与传统有一些不同之处，在材料、结构上和传统中国画相比虽然有比较强的个人性，但我一直在思考如何更有效的表达。同时我进一步思考——能不能不使用传统的表现方法，让这种表达和你的心理及当下产生一种关系，这种关系和文化上是一种什么样的关联?这种关系能够通过哪种方法确立与表达?以一种更个人化的，只连接文化而不连接笔墨的创作方法?在这种状态下，“指印”出现。“指印”在当时不被接受，于是，我开始策略的以实验水墨为立场，努力于非具象的探讨，出现了“灵光”系列作品。这个时期客观的讲我们的创作同样经历了80年代中国现代主义的思考，我把之前的那种具象性的东西全部舍弃掉，但依然用的是传统的水墨材料。在这样一个背景下，我尽量强调水墨性，把笔性的过去意义逐渐消解，将笔的外化痕迹弃掉。为了表达的需要，创造了“开花皴”也称“乱皴”这么一种新笔法。

　　Zhang: There were differences from the tradition in the works of my early period, beyond differences of language format and expressive mindset. Although they were, compared to traditional Chinese painting, strongly idiosyncratic in terms of materials and structure, I was nevertheless always thinking of how to strengthen the expressive quality. At the same time, I was taking my thinking a step further, and was thinking about whether it would be possible not to use traditional expressive methods, to let the resulting expression produce an immediate relationship with one’s psychology, and about what kind of connection there would be between this relationship and culture? Through which method could that relationship be established and expressed? By a creative method that was even more individualized, and only connected with culture and not with brush-and-ink? Fingerprint works appeared when I was in this state, but were not accepted by the public at that time, so on the basis of the experimental ink-and-wash that I had begun to adopt as a strategy, I worked on non-figurative explorations, and the Inspiration series appeared. Objectively speaking, during this period we had all been through the considerations of Chinese modernism in the 1980s, and I had completely got rid of those previous figurative things, still however using the traditional materials of ink-and-wash. Against this background, I emphasized the ink-and-wash character to the utmost while gradually eliminating the former significance of the brush-stroke quality and discarding the externalized traces of the brush. To fulfill my expressive needs, I created the new brush technique of ‘loose brush texture’ (kaihuacun, 开花皴), also known as ‘random texture’ (luancun, 乱皴).

　　杭：这样也正像你刚才说到的，你曾给你的“灵光”系列作品起了个“开花皴”这么一个名称，从这一点上也可以看出你当时的这种创作心理。

　　Hang: This also seems just like what you were mentioning earlier, that you once called the works of your Inspiration series by the name of ‘Loose Brush Texture’ (Kaihuacun, 开花皴). This point illustrates your creative psychology during the period.

　　张：其实，对我而言，这是策略和推进的逻辑。“灵光”牵扯到创作经验，无意识习性等问题。你在运用笔墨创作时无意识的就陷入传统经验陷阱。所以早在1991年“指印”的出现使我开始探寻一种个人化的创作方法。因为拿起毛笔就会无意识的向绘画性走去，所以就想如果放下毛笔，还能不能找到一种文化上的关联。那么手是一切行为的关联，而指印不仅和文化有关系，和身体也有关系。

　　Zhang: In fact, as far as I was concerned, this was a logic of strategy and promotion. Inspiration raised questions of creative experience, unconscious habits and so on. When you use brush-and-ink to create you are unconsciously drawn into the trap of the traditional experience, so the appearance of Fingerprints back in 1991 made me begin my search for a personal creative method. Because you will, as soon as you pick up a brush pen, unconsciously tend towards a painterly character, the question I asked was whether you could still find a cultural connection if you put the brush pen down. Well, hands are the link in all performance, and fingerprints are connected not only to culture but also to your body.

　　杭：这个还是和你的“灵光”系列有关系。

　　Hang: This is still in relation to your Inspiration series.

　　张：对，“灵光”其实是把“指印”中的一个指印点作极限放大。前面讲过，因为91年做指印的时候有太多的不接受和不理解，也意识到自己走的还是太远了。所以1993年后“灵光”作品产生了，“灵光”相对于“指印”便于从绘画的经验中接受和理解。可当时的“灵光”也不是太能被接受，直到1996年我在广州策划了一个当代水墨研讨会，反响较大，之后“灵光”开始逐渐被接受，认可。当被接受、认可之后，1998年继续我的自我追问。1999年我提出“走出水墨”的创作理念。所以回过头来再做指印，91年的指印是焦墨的，而2001年重新开始的指印是红色的，是在强调契约画押这样一种文化关联。其表达，是想以一个文化概念去针对艺术问题，并超越绘画性。同时指印行为，可以直接感受创作过程及表达的时间显现，一个行为本身的意义在其中，并抛开了抽象绘画概念的界定，在作品中留下行为、痕迹两条线索。

　　Zhang: Yes. Inspiration in fact took a single fingerprint from Fingerprints and magnified it to the limit. I said before that, because there was too little appreciation and too little understanding of the Fingerprints works when I created them in 1991, I realized that I had gone too far ahead. So when the Inspiration works were produced after 1993, they were, compared to Fingerprints, easier to receive and understand from within the painterly experience. However, Inspiration was not too accessible at the time either, and it wasn’t until after I convened the contemporary ink-and-wash colloquium in Guangzhou in 1996 and it generated widespread influence, that the Inspiration series gradually began to be accepted and to achieve recognition. After it had become accepted and recognized, I continued my own inquiries from 1998 on. In 1999 I proposed the creative conception of ‘going beyond ink-and-wash’, and I reverted to making Fingerprint works. The 1991 Fingerprints were made with charcoal ink (jiaomo, 焦墨), while the Fingerprint works I started making again in 2001 were red, emphasizing the cultural connection with making one’s fingerprint on contracts. What I was expressing here was the wish to target artistic questions by means of a cultural concept, and also to transcend the painterly quality. At the same time, through the performance of fingerprinting one may directly feel the temporal manifestation of the creative process and expression. The significance of an action in itself is involved, and it also dismisses the definition of the conceptions of abstract painting, and leaves performance and trace as the two remaining strands in the work.

　　杭：从刚开始您介入水墨，到现在“指印”作品这么一个30年的历程，用一句话，您怎样进行一种概括?因为30年的过程，您一直在进行着一种突围，打破艺术理论概念的界定，并逐渐摆脱我们关于水墨的概念，甚至关于架上绘画的概念。到了今天，您认为您的作品到底是属于一种架上系统，一种非架上系统或是别的系统类型?

　　Hang: How would you, in a single phrase, sum up the thirty-year course from your first starting out in ink-and-wash to your present Fingerprint works? Because you have, during the whole thirty-year process, constantly been engaged in breaking out, smashing the definitions of the concepts of art theory, and gradually freeing us from our concepts about ink-and-wash, even from our concepts of easel-painting as such. Do you consider today that your works ultimately belong to some system within easel-painting, or to a non-easel-painting system, or to some other systematic category?

　　张：我个人觉得这个不重要。因为人类的发展，社会的进步，包括艺术的发展都是一个认知过程。你因为自信你的思考和理念而坚持，当你每一次回过头来看你走过的路的时候总会有一种新的发现，也会发现一些问题。不断的自我调整、自我突围。其实这种突围、突破的过程，重要的是作为艺术家自身来说，找到一种认知系统。即把你所想表达的找到一种合适的语言及方式，且需要一种逻辑上的符合。对当代艺术而言，在今天更多的是一种综合的表述方式，至于属于哪一种类型都无所谓，因为重要的是，其艺术的表达是否具有意义。

　　Zhang: Personally I feel that this does not matter, for human development, social progress, even artistic development, are all matters of cognitive process. Because you believe in your thinking and in your conceptions, you persevere, and whenever you look back and review the road you have taken you are likely to come up with new discoveries, including problematic discoveries. You are constantly adjusting yourself and breaking out of yourself. In fact what is important in this process of breaking out or breaking through, speaking as an artist, is to find a cognitive system. That is, to find a suitable language and format for what you wish to express also requires some logical matching. Contemporary art is today mostly a consolidated format of statement, in which it doesn’t even matter what category it belongs to, for the important thing is whether or not its artistic expression means something.

　　杭：对这里边你实际上提到很重要的一点就是今天我们艺术不能单纯的进行一种艺术阵营的划分，从而进行一种形式化的判断。更重要的是一个表达系统的构建，即你无论是架上还是非架上都要有一个表达系统，选择一种语言方式。比如选择小便器就是一种方式，一种语言，再者就是你选择的表达语义系统、语言方式与你欲表达的内容、观念是否恰当，是否有机结合。

　　Hang: You have raised a very important point here, which is that in art today we cannot simply carry out a division into artistic camps and then carry out a formalized judgment along those lines. More important is the construction of an expressive system, that is, regardless of whether you paint paintings on an easel or not, you must have a system of expression and choose a format of visual language. For instance, choosing a urinal is a format, a language. The next thing is whether the semantic system and linguistic format of your choice are appropriate for the content that you want to express, whether there is an organic combination.

　　张：还有，我觉得表达，还牵涉到一个很重要的唯一性。即你的表达语言与内容、观念是否是独一无二的，是否是不可替代的，这些很重要。你所选择的表达媒介与你所表达的内容是否恰到好处，这也很重要。你比如说，我可以选择将指印点在木板上，或将指印点在透明胶片上，它们都可以成立，但是它们的表达可能就成为另一个问题。还有一些其他媒介，我也进行过一些尝试，但都无法代替在宣纸上表达的文化意义和针对性。

　　Zhang: Also, I feel that expression involves a uniqueness that is very important. That is, are your expressive language, content and conceptions unique and unparalleled, and not subject to replacement? These things are very important. Whether the expressive medium of your choice is just right for the content you wish to express is also very important. Say for instance that I could choose to make my fingerprints on a wooden board, or on transparent film. It would be possible to do either, but the resulting expression might become a different proposition. There are also some other media in which I have carried out some attempts, but none of them can replace the cultural significance and specific focus of what is expressed on xuan paper.

　　杭：实际上，经过30年的突围，您从一个很狭窄的水墨领域到当代艺术这么一个比较自由的领域，可以以表达内容为中心借用各种媒介、形式语言来进行表达的这么一个时期，可以和西方的，中国的，进行一种语言对话的时期。一句话，即你从一个很小的水墨角落，进入到今天的最自由的这么一个领域空间。您觉得您的最大特征是什么?

　　Hang: In fact, during thirty years’ experience of breaking out, you have gone from the very narrow field of ink-and-wash to the relatively free field of contemporary art, through such a long period of being able to use various media and formal languages to convey things centered around your expressive content, during which period you have been able to engage in a linguistic dialogue with the West and with China. In a word, what do you consider your predominant characteristic in entering, from such a narrow ink-and-wash angle, the space of a field that is so free today?

　　张：就我个人来讲，开放的视野使我有一种放松和自由感，于是使自己努力于个人的表达方法，追求唯一性、不可替代性。而不断的突围自己才能突围文化上的束缚，而这一切需要你特别站在一个国际性的视角来思考问题。水墨不等于水墨画，水墨不是笔墨，水墨不是神话，水墨是一种认识世界的方法，水墨是一种文化，一种精神。

　　Zhang: I personally would say that the open vision gives me a feeling of relaxation and freedom, and accordingly makes me work hard at my personal expressive method, pursuing uniqueness and irreplaceability. But only through constantly breaking out of myself can I break out of the shackles of the culture, and this requires one to consider problems particularly from the standpoint of an international angle. Ink-and-wash is not only ink-and-wash paintings. Ink-and-wash is not brush-and-ink. Ink-and-wash is not myth. Ink-and-wash is a method of perceiving the world. Ink-and-wash is a kind of culture, a kind of spirit.

　　杭：一个艺术家真正的完成自我突围，他必须要视野开阔，他不能自我封闭，不能走向自闭症。他需要在一个综合素养的前提下作出一种单一化的方向选择，而不是单一化的声名大噪之后进行众多的语言、材料媒介表演。

　　Hang: To break out of oneself truly and completely as an artist, one has to open up one’s field of vision. One cannot be sealed off on one’s own. One cannot move towards autism. One must make a unified choice of direction, subject to one’s having achieved comprehensive attainments, rather than carry out a large number of performances in a multitude of linguistic styles and material media after attaining a unified reputation.

　　张：对，任何艺术媒介的使用与表达都不是浅层的，你必须对使用的媒介有足够的认识和充分的准备，语言的表述与媒介质性相辅相成。一个成功的油画家或雕塑家，不一定能作好水墨，因为水墨不仅仅是材料，更是一种文化。

　　Zhang: Right. The use of and expression through any artistic medium is never something shallow. You must have a sufficient knowledge of, and be fully prepared for, any medium you use, and the statement of your language and the qualities of the medium mutually complement and complete each other. A successful oil painter or sculptor is not necessarily able to produce good ink-and-wash, because ink-and-wash is not just a material, but rather a kind of culture.

　　Translated by Wen Zai/AEMcKenzie