Uli: Just to finish my definition of where I stand before I can go into Tian Wei’s work: if aWestern person lacking the skill of writing Chinese talks about Chinese calligraphy, it’slike talking about the other end of the world. We haven’t been there; it doesn’t mean wedon’t have an imagination of what it is, but we can only talk about this imagination.
　　Victoria: Yes, so it’s interesting that we are having this conversation, because we aretalking from two extreme ends. From a Western point of view, there isn’t a history ofcalligraphy, the art of readable letters. In the Middle Ages, of course, the manuscriptswere a kind of a calligraphic art but not the same as Chinese calligraphy, where weactually use the letters’ forms to express very deep spiritual matters. So this is a totallydifferent concept in art. And so from the Chinese point of view, calligraphy is notonly visual forms; the meaning, the poetic meaning, or the statement has to beexpressed along with visual form. It is more similar to Islamic calligraphy. But Islamiccalligraphy has a religious purpose – the dignified, the sacred part of the writing is amain issue. But Chinese calligraphy is more in the form of art, so it has to have thevisual effect as well.
　　U:I think Arabic calligraphy is different. I can write the Arabicalphabet. It’s an alphabet, it’s less than thirty letters. So I compare it more to other writingthan to Chinese calligraphy which is based on a very different concept.
　　V: But a lot ofIslamic calligraphy is decorated with patterns and designs, so it becomes a very specialkind of decorative art – one with sacred meaning. That sacredness is not a part ofChinese calligraphy. Chinese calligraphy has nothing to do with religion. Even thoughthere are the writings of Buddhism, Jing Shu, where they copied the book ofBuddhism the same way they copied the Bible in the Middle Ages. But that was notconsidered art as much. Tian Wei uses the Chinese calligraphic form but writes inEnglish letters. So that is really interesting because for the majority of Chinese people looking at his paintings, it’sincomprehensible. Unless we tell them what the meaning of the word is, most of the Chinese viewers don’t know English,they can’t read the words. So he is transferring this calligraphic method and making it more of a pure art, more a purepainting visual art. This transformation is of interest to me because Chinese calligraphy has its standard, its history; thejudgment of whether it’s good or bad has a long history. The kind of zhuan shu, li shu, kai shu, cao shu – they have acertain standard and the format of the letters has a certain structure. But Tian Wei’s work has all the structures of all thedifferent forms of calligraphy, even though it looks more like cao shu, even more like kuang chao, but it really has norelationship with the two. So from my point of view, when I see his work, it’s actually no longer readable. But to be ableto read the content of the letters is the main part of Chinese calligraphy. But now, in this modern age, the youngergeneration of Chinese can no longer read ancient calligraphy. So what’s the difference between Westerners and Chinesepeople? There no longer is much difference because the younger generation no longer reads that kind of calligraphyanymore.U:But to me, these paintings create a typically Western situation, now mirrored for a Chinese person. Because aChinese person that doesn’t speak English won’t be able to read it.
　　V: Yes, that’s what I mean.
　　U:That’s the position Westernpeople have with regard to Chinese calligraphy. And also, the work is interesting because he deals with these misunderstandingsbetween language and its script. As Westerners, we look at Chinese calligraphy and always try to determine what object we canrecognize within a character because we think that’s how the script has been constructed – from a concrete object, create theimage, then simplify the image, then turn it into a character. That’s the Western way of thinking. So whenever Western peopleare faced with Chinese calligraphy, they desperately try to find the meaning which might be hidden there. But of course it doesn’twork. In the end it is something else – it morphed from maybe a really early script where it was actually representing a certainobject into a very abstract signal rather than anything else. So Western people looking at this work also first have to identifythat this is an English word,that this is not a Chinese character. But what does all of this mean to us? It means there must besome kind of Chinese spirit in writing, and this Chinese spirit seems to appear even in an English word as it does, obviously, ina Chinese word.
　　V: So Tian Wei’s work is actually creating a bridge between the Western point of view and the Chinesepoint of view. When Chinese look at the writing, first looking at the visual part of the movement of the lines, they areseeing whether the structure has created a powerful image. And that part can be satisfied easily, because it’s visual. Thento expect the letters have meanings but immediately it's blank, because the Chinese can no longer read the writing – it’snot in Chinese. Then the Westerner from the other end suddenly realizes these are letters that he can read, and that we,Chinese, can no longer read. That creates a bridge, bridging the two experiences from the two languages; the script canbe readable or not readable.U:I think it offers the bridge but will people go over this bridge, this is hard to assess. Only anexhibition will tell if they will actually cross the bridge. They may just stay on their safe shore. This will be most interesting tosee, how will somebody without any introduction react to this painting, Chinese orWestern.
　　V: So, I think many people, including you and me, compare Tian Wei withXu Bing, another Chinese artist who uses calligraphy to make art. I would like toknow what you think about comparing their work.
　　U:I think we would probably haveto include Gu Wen Da as an artist who also deals with Chinese script.
　　V: Yes, Gu WenDa.
　　U:I think they all went very different routes, and each route has its own importanceand meaning. And if we think of Xu Bing, it’s only because he also uses the Englishlanguage and the Western alphabet,but rather to create a new visual language. I don’tthink this is the ambition of Tian Wei. He doesn’t think in these terms, he is not aresearcher in language, as Xu Bing is. He is a researcher of painting. There is thedifference, in my view. This is no value judgment, they just represent two very differentpositions.
　　V: Even though they are both involved with characters, two alphabets. U:Yes, two alphabets.
　　V: To me, I see Tian Wei as more like painting the calligraphy.Because in the past, calligraphy itself stood as a form of art. Even though he is usingthis tradition, but painting it rather than writing it. With writing, the meaning ismore important, because you are writing the character to express its meaning. He ispainting the character, so more important is the visual effect, how the whole structureof painting will deliver. To me, I will see in his work two layers of phase, of meaning,like two time zones that bring the two worlds together in one painting. So you willsee that he purposely uses different kinds of backgrounds for these floating characters.So the background sometimes, not directly, has connection with the letters. Andsometimes the background can deliver the message for the letters. So this compositionof these two time zones, two spaces, is actually a representation of his feelings livingin the West for so long. I don’t think he himself realizes how deep Western cultureand art is actually affecting his art. I have seen his early work in Los Angeles; what hewas concerned with during the making of his early works and what he’s concernedwith now – he is going on a separate road. Even though some of the calligraphy refersto his past, like the way the lines are done, the concept is different. So I believeWestern abstract art actually imposed a great change on Tian Wei’s work.
　　U:To me it’sone surface, two worlds – two cultural spaces on one surface. And what struck me when Isaw it, my thought was, a Chinese artist spending his life in China could not do this work. An American artist living inAmerica could not do this work. It takes his particular life, that life experience to paint that work. It could only be done by aperson who studied Chinese calligraphy and Western painting. In particular we may think of abstract expressionism, but it goesbeyond that. But that is what struck me – this painting requires that kind of biography.
　　V: So it’s very difficult to imitate thisart, because to me it’s a cultural experience. You can see he has superimposed some Chinese kind of calligraphy onEnglish writing. Even Robert Motherwell can’t do something like this. It has similar gestures, similar dark line movementsto Franz Kline…
　　U:A lot of Western people, particularly in abstract expressionism, have come up with something seeminglyAsian, still I think this is completely different.
　　V: They deal mainly with space.
　　U:They resort, even explicitly sometimes, tothe Chinese script. But always with the position, I have described in the beginning, of not understanding the meaning, just byhaving a visual impact. So this leads to the interesting question: what is it about this Chinese spirit? Because obviously thewords in his paintings show us, it may be a Chinese character or it may be a Western sign, a western alphabet, but it will giveus this impression of a Chinese spirit in there. So it evokes this question: what is this Chinese spirit? What exactly leads us toread it as a Chinese sign, whether it’s a Western word or a Chinese character? This is so interesting about the work to me.
　　V:And also I can see the influence of American conceptual art, because he is not writing a full sentence. He is not giving usa portrait. He is giving us one simple word. And the word is a strong message. And the message itself is art. So this is areference to American conceptual art – using some signal to give out certain meanings, and the signal itself is art. And itcan be a neon light, it can be a digital lighting system, it can be carving on a stone, and the message itself is art. So toread, to face Tian Wei’s work, it takes a complicated system to really be able to do it. And the purpose of using colors isalso a reflection of his experience of dealing with the clothing, the mass – produced, ready – made fashion he wasinvolved in the States.
　　U:Of course that ready – made fashion is made in China, while he may not have been in China at thetime.
　　V: But he was living in America, importing this kind of fashion. And for the American market, there is actually agreat interest in shiny colors, especially those kinds of florescent colors systems.
　　U:To me that is very much a West Coastfeeling. I identify a West Coast feeling in his paintings.
　　V: I lived in the LA area for 20 years and this West Coast culture isvery different from the East Coast, New York – centered culture. And he lived in Hawaii before – and looked at Hawaiiant–shirts, what colors you get in those? So unknowingly, not purposely, Tian Wei transformed his lifetime experience intoone space – the canvas. So the color and the background are revealing his experiences in life.
　　U:I appreciate that verymuch in his paintings. To me, they are honest works, because they evolved very much subconsciously into these manifestations. Ithink it’s honest work requiring that kind of feeling that he had. Of course I think it could be imitated , but not the history.We may see imitation in the future, some other artists will paint that way, but I think they will lack that particular feeling andthe slow growth of its particular manifestation.
　　V: And the way he deals with color is also very interesting. He likes thepurer colors. You see very little mixing. He tries to present pure, clean color – itreinforces the strong meaning he is conveying with one word. And so that one wordbecomes very powerful. Compare it to Jenny Holzer, Barbara Kruger, those Americanartists that rose in the 70s… So the message itself does the service. To me, I read thatpart immediately.
　　U:But I think that’s also very Chinese. Of course, calligraphy veryoften is not more than one sign, one character, one word, so I don’t see so much JennyHolzer or Barbara Kruger, I see this as a Chinese tradition almost, to have this one largesign, particularly the more recent calligraphy – it’s often not the whole text, it may just bea character or even a fragment thereof. But the interesting question to me remains, what’sthe reception by the Chinese? And again this mirror effect of Western people having lookedat Chinese calligraphy for centuries, not understanding the characters but still forming anopinion and now we may have Chinese faced with this situation, facing an English wordbut in a Chinese manifestation. What kind of emotion is going to be transferred to them?What kind of imagination will it create in their minds? Will they accept it as somethingChinese or will they resent it as a fake?
　　V: For me to see the development of Tian Wei’swork from his early stages to this point, I think the part that I really miss the most isthe painterly quality of his early works. He is actually a great painter. He actually didreally powerful abstract paintings at an earlier stage. Now we see mostly amonochromatic canvas. Now he is using the monochromatic canvas instead of thehighly painted space he displayed in the past, the painterly quality he displayed at anearlier stage. Now you see geometric or hard – edged patterns, like paper – cuttingpatterns. He is avoiding all the different shades of inks that you deal with intraditional ink painting, as ink can be divided into five colors.
　　U:But let me introducea Western position to this. Many Western people may view his older paintings asmonochromatic, because it’s only black. Just as many Western people may think of Chineseink on paper very often as monochrome painting, while they would appreciate the surfacestructure, the thick layers of colors in his paintings. They would maybe pay more attentionto the surface of a painting than a Chinese viewer. So they might discover some otherrichness in this painting than a Chinese person would. So I think this difference, lookingat the work by difference, or by bridging, would allow for many more interpretations andmay open new spaces to each public.
　　V: This is a new way to look at what Chinese contemporary art can be. In the past,the younger generation of Chinese artists has tried to imitate the Western contemporary art movements and now lookingat Tian Wei – he is not imitating any movement but taking upon his own position and reflecting his choice of how hewants to make his space. So I think the space in his art is so important. So you often see he uses the same color tosuperimpose, the thick paint of the calligraphy, and layers of same color build a flat surface and two different shades ofsame color in the space. So to me, it’s almost like architectural space in his paintings, which is a different concept fortraditional Chinese art. So he is bringing this reference to the composition which we’ve never had before.
　　U:What I alsothink is interesting is this kind of “third way.” We have a Western way of doing things, we have a Chinese way of doing things,we know both. And the way China should go,and the whole world should go, they will have to find a synthesis of the best of allworlds. Right now we have seen an overpowering of the Western world of the Chinese culture, that’s not the right thing. When Ithink we need some synthesis, then I’m thinking beyond painting, I’m thinking of the cultures. And here in his paintings I see isan effort to do this. Whether that is already a solution is not so important; here is an effort to bring all this on one surface,which I think is interesting and remains to be done in many other spheres of today’s cultural life, economic life. We may have tofind a third way to cope with the issues facing us..
　　V: And also I think it’s so important to pay attention to Tian Wei’s workbecause in the past two decades, Chinese contemporary art has been focused on a very narrow path. Only political works,or art dealing with social criticism could be considered contemporary; art outside of these two categories seemed to beout of fashion. And in my point of view, Chinese contemporary art has to be eclectic; it has to be plural. The pluralism isso important because the Chinese went through the Cultural Revolution, which tried to unify people to become onekind. And the younger generation wants to rebel against that unity. So this new pluralism is an obvious answer to thissingularity. Tian Wei is one example; he is using his own interpretation of the calligraphic tradition in his Western life.He’s a foreigner here. Even though he looks Chinese, he speaks Chinese, in many ways he was away from this part of theworld for so long. So he brings these Western cultural influences, but he is not imitating – because he is Western. I havesimilar experiences and feelings; I look Chinese, I speak Chinese. But what about my mind? I was educated in the Westsince I was 20; actually I have more knowledge of Western contemporary art than Chinese contemporary art. And I thinkit’s amazing that you have more knowledge about Chinese contemporary art than me – you are a foreigner and I’mChinese. But actually you have lived here for a long time. You’ve seen the evolution of Chinese contemporary art. Youknow so many Chinese artists of our age, many more than I do. So what you understand about Chinese contemporary artis far greater and deeper than me. But then I lived in the West, I know about American contemporary art, I had a galleryin Los Angeles in the 1970s, and I dealt only with American artists. So I’m so familiar with American contemporary art.You can no longer judge a person by his nationality, his ethnic background. This is the beginning of a new age. You nolonger distinguish people by race, language, nationality. It’s the lifetime experienceyou’ve had.
　　U:It is an interesting point of view you raise. Although when I’m thinkingabout Tian Wei’s work, I try to eliminate this whole complex of emigrant/immigrant issuesthat Chinese are faced with when they go abroad. You know, the identity question. Arethey Chinese? Are they Western? They may be neither/nor, and they may realize this, andof course this poses a problem in their personal biography. I’m not so much interested inthis issue, which does exist,I remained a Western person even though I spent so much timein China. I am more interested in this bridge characteristic and the work itself. But Iunderstand that this is a big issue.
　　V: That’s my point of view. I see you and myself,and see that we are demonstrating a new situation here. No longer is identityimportant. It’s the loss of identity. When you deal with Chinese contemporary art,often you forget your identity as a Swiss citizen. It’s not so important. You are facingcontemporary art by itself. It’s a life experience of some artist for you. It’s thiscommunication channel that is important for contemporary art today. I’m not talkingabout globalization. A lot of people talking about globalization, in the end, they thinkthe West is invading the East. I am sick of that kind of talk. It’s not true. It’s not aninvasion. Western culture is not this superpower taking over the East. I’m not seeingthat. I’m seeing a new ground: we are all here, experiencing some pluralist kind ofway of life – a third way, a different way of seeing things so people no longer have tochose either side, West or East. It’s a new experience of combination, eclecticism – theidea behind the show we last curated together, the Aesthetics of Heterogeneity. WhatI mean is that this hybrid combination is important because you don’t take sides, youdon’t force people to look for their identities. I see that in Tian Wei’s work. He’s nolonger looking for identities. That’s something he’s sick and tired of looking for. Sowe don’t have to struggle, like you said, dealing with immigrant issues. Why bother?It’s a natural process for him to absorb, and select, and combine, and create a sort ofnew species. It’s like creating a new species by hybridization. That’s how I see it. That’swhy he was he invited to take part in the show we curated.
　　U:Right. I also see, thisglobalization in art and culture creating a wealth of possibilities for the best artists tochoose from. But I admit that for the second and third best artists, it inevitably leads toconfusion.
　　V: Why the confusion?
　　U:Because there is so much input, so much information. In order to use it, you have toprioritize it, structure it, interpret it,make choices. But to do all this, you have to think, you have to study, you have to spendtime and you have to work hard. It may only mature over time, not instantly, and many artists give up on that,because theydon’t want to go through this process. They just stop there. Or they just take everything. Both strategies, I think, are not theright ones. So it requires a strong will, a will to concentrate, to think, to go through this – quite some perseverance to deal withthis globalization, with this wealth in art. But if you have done that, you will be a much richer individual and you will haveadded to your personal arsenal.... to your whole instrumentation.
　　V: I found that in this new century, the information agewe have already entered, I really think one of the biggest problems that we have in the Chinese contemporary art world isthat the artists have too much information, too much to learn. So some artists shut their doors and refuse to learn. Thislack of knowledge becomes the biggest problem in Chinese contemporary art. For Tian Wei, his art comes about throughthe learning stages of his life. He had done so much research behind the canvas before he got to this point. So thismethod is also important for contemporary art today.
　　U:Actually I think he has gone through that process I was trying todescribe before – gathering all the information, structuring it in your mind, making your choices, forming your opinion – Ithink he has done just that.
　　V: Yes, he has done that. He has demonstrated that this is his way to deal with this problem.But some artist’s refuse to do this and just imitate the surface of this contemporary eclecticism. And so for me, to be ableto read beyond the canvas is so important in my profession. And I have seen this crisis in the works of young artists’works. They are no longer willing to use their minds; they are using their eyes and hands only. This is something I seebut I’m not worried about because I’ve seen so many artists in my life, and the excellent, gifted artists are few. You canmeet 5,000 artists but only a few – maybe 5 – will attract you, or maybe struck you, and leave an impact on you. Artistsshouldn’t be ordinary. They shouldn’t be normal people. You are looking for something exceptional among thecommoners. For me, this continuous search for excellence is our journey. You have to look and pick, and look and giveup. And during this process, you discover the depth of an artist, the depth of his art. And that’s what our job is. So forme, a lot of contemporary art today remains in very shallow waters. That’s because they have no basin for it, no depthgoing into a channel of history. To me, Tian Wei is an artist whose art reflects his life. His experience has changed bycoming back, so you will see his art change along with his lifestyle. I don’t think his art can remain in any stage. Likeeven when I asked him, why don’t you try to paint like you did before? He can’t go back. It’s not that he can not, he is nolonger willing to go back, because his life has changed. His experience has changed, his feelings have changed. So he is anartist who is always dealing with current experience, rather than one who sticks with one style he invented.
　　U:Well, wewill be curious to see what comes next.
　　V: That’s what I feel from his art.

（牛亚军　译）