Q: The contemporary fine arts of China was started throughout the whole 1980s, some academies also took actions to reform, but at that time, the fine arts development and fine arts education essentially conflicted with popular creation concept on the society. You are educated in the 1980s. Would you please talk about the impact of fine arts education and social thought on yourself? A: The difference between my feeling and my education appeared around 1984, and there were“Untitled”and “Homesickness”left at that time. Around 1982, we often went to Yi County (Hebei Province) to sketch. The sceneries in my works are originated there. Once I painted an oldster who lived in the village, but the works was smudgy. As a matter of fact, I could paint cleanly and tidily, but I felt only this effect conformed to my feeling at that time. Plenty of people thought it baroque, because it conformed to neither academic standard nor exhibition standard. Everybody asked why I painted in this way. I said:“I painted this picture not for a sketch or a head portrait, even not for a picture”. They asked: “What do you want to paint? ”Finally I could not answer, but this question was left. In fact, this question would be simple for my current condition. The biggest problem at that time was that the whole education system and exhibition system were absonant with the art in my mind, but in order to obtain voice, I must make some achievements, so a little something was concealed. Afterwards I tried some other forms, but such qualitative change had occurred. Although I also painted some flowers and birds thereafter, I reserved certain possibilities for myself. That period was more important, and then I made a great many woodcuts. There were not many successful works in current view, but they were a sort of experiment. In retrospect, it just liked the relationship between gun and flying saucer. Of course, such relationship at that moment was simpler, just like the positions of gun and flying saucer were fixed. Q: Are there any especial meanings for you about“Homesickness”and“Untitled”? A: Homesickness and Untitled were created almost simultaneously. At that time, the whole fine arts community called for life experience, namely to watch the life of somebody else in the poorest and hardest places. So-called life experience was to experience the life of others. After graduated from polytechnic school, I was assigned to an advertising agency, which often took out some expenses for us to go to life countryside to sketch. On occasion of sketching, I went home and painted these works which were the visual copy to common sceneries. What they reflect is my pursuance to form without enough courage. There are two primary factors in these works: one is country realism; the other is life experience and sketching concept at that time. Such as figures in“Homesickness II”, I could delete these details completely, but I was very afraid and I was eager to tell somebody else I had my own life, so such a problem was left. This may be the second time to deviate from routine. Q: Was this deviation influenced by the fine arts thought on the society at that time? A: In those days, the purpose of creating was much purer, even works could not join exhibitions. I found such things smoothly. This group of works were finished soon and had greater impact on me. I didn’t think these things were so important for my succedent creation. They had not been mature yet, and I was lacking of confidence, so when I was processing the sunshine, I painted circle by circle, but I will not paint in such away now. These works left something here that makes me want to return afterwards. I created many works on concerning sunshine in Dutch. The thought to form line with points in my works is very important. Q: You drew some sketches in the late years in the university. These sketches started to approximate your subsequent paintings. What do you think of these sketches? A: These works are the same to the previous chromatic sketches without great independent value. The significance of them is that I became convinced with lingual problem. We liked saying to search our own language. But what we are? At that time, it’s just a subterfuge in my opinion. There are many aspects for human, and what human concern, represent and notice can be a great many things. You can be absorbed in a certain aspect, while this aspect is just yourself. If you don’t concern anything, the concept of self does not exist. The truth of the topic on self is unreasonable; in this case, we can represent ourselves unreasonably. When I painted these works, somebody said: “Fang Lijun, don’t paint this, because this is not yourself.” But I had been dead-set. From then on, I started to reject all advices on my paintings, unless what he said happens to coincide with my view. Thereafter I made the problem on life source and artistic language clear. Then I was clear about such matters and I can step down firmly. Q: What are the differences between these sketches and the sketches after your graduation from the university? A: The sketches after the graduation are more clear.We were confronted with Tian An Men Event happened before we graduated, which was a huge impact with a great many obstructions, so that those hindered things were changed inot smoo thness. Previous sketches were experimental works, some of them were not clear. Underwent May Fourth Movement, all things became clear. I knew the focus what I concern, and I knew what processes and technologies can help me realize it. As a matter of fact, after the Tian An Men Event, I had decided the work for next few years, including materials and steps I used. From then on, I started to think painting was my fate. With this awareness, the left problem was technical details. Q: Is sketching your way of solving detail problems? A: The painting classes in the Print Department I graduated from were less, so I was afraid of painting. Then I adopted the primary measure - sketching on paper. Another reason for sketching was I was lack of self-confidence to my sculpting ability. I held pencils from 6B to 6H with sharp tines; I roughly drafted with 6B pencil and turned to 5B pencil for modification of dark and light and finally I used 6H pencil. This was my attempt in secret; meanwhile it was the important part within over one year after graduation. Thereafter were some paintings which helped me get rid of primary things rapidly. The most important change in the first painting was its background. After June Fourth, an unrestrained and far-ranging sense burst into my mind, and occlusive things were broken up. I wished to turn to my theme directly, so the backgrounds of paintings were on-limits. I can not bear this closed background now. I had many considerations on space from the view of vision significance or language. From then on, I painted just like building a house, and the most important factor in works was to build a piece of space. I usually entered on visual space and then led figures in a new significative space. Q: Is“Oil Painting IV”in 1989 your first painting after your graduation? A: At that time I created some paintings, in addition to this one, another painting was destroyed. Now I have a preference for this works. In this works, there are factors like calvities and water appeared in subsequent works. But I must make a selection. I especially want to draw water, because the state of water is the most appropriate to the sense of the time. But at that time, calvities was more effective for me. Previously I drew quite a few sketches, so I know the meaning of my works is no problem, now what it needs is attractive appearance. It may be successful if the meaning and appearance are integrated together. Provided there is no meaning, I will not show the works for anybody. After drew a great many sketches, I feel I have mastered factors concerning meaning, now the most appealing appearance is needed. I have no choice but to select calvities, because it can create a strong visual effect. Through previous works, I find the implication of calvities is the best and most ambiguous. There is a little bolshy for calvities, while it is indistinct, for example, bonze, soldiery and culprit are all calvities. Calvities can eliminate personalities completely. It is absolutely different from our education. For me, the importance of calvities is to eliminate the concept of individual and show the concept of the whole human. It is stronger now. In art history, few artists wanted to show general human on foreground. But there are a large number of general human. With these considerations, I decided to postpone works concerning water. Another reason was that I felt it was difficult dealing with the technology concerning about water. It was just at that time that I understood one must consider things from many aspects, rather than one aspect. Q: As a student from Print Department, do you have any technical problems in the painting-oriented creation method. A: There were technical problems, when I decided to create works concerning calvities. I was unwilling to finish with sketch, so I adopted the simplest and primary measure to paint. This is to paint with monochrome. I avoided all technical problems and turned to the theme. But I still continuously repeated water with limit. I kept on works concerning water, although water was not put on foreground. Q: From your early works, we find there are figures repeated continually in the background space. Why did you use these signs? A: The actual signification of figures repeated in works is to eliminate individualized one and reserve common ones. The things that are going to happen but not happened are the most powerful for me. That I put these figures on the background is like“a sound of thunder behind mountain”. It happens far away from you, but it relates to you; it may be far away from you, but it will arrive at your neighborhood. In addition, I want to turn it to a shadow which exists but is not important; it is always in back of you, but it can never jump out. But you are controlled by it all the time. Q: Can these black and white works be regarded as the start of your formal work? What do you think of these black and white works? A: There were seven works in black and white series, none of them presented in exhibitions. Since 1989, the condition in fine arts community has become unfavorable, so quite a few people went to earn money or do other things. While there seems to be a sort of paranoia in me, in my opinion, the whole state and nation encountered such affair, and everybody was impacted greatly, so there must be something will touch human’s creativity. Such impact may be the disaster for our nation, but it is the opportunity to enlighten artists. In my opinion, if all countrywide intellectuals work at home, they must make some achievements after two or three years. This time must be not too long, because nobody will stay so long time. Of course this sense comes true finally. In fact I avoided a great many problems when I drew black and white works. With black and white works, I felt I started to master the material property and sense for painting. Q: So you began your creation of chromatic series very soon? A: At that time I just felt I must use another color for new work after mastering black and white works. But I was still cautious about color. In series II, all colors are monochrome in fact. Each part in the works consists of different monochromes. For example, in“Series II (2)”, the sky is the monochrome of blue and white, and the clothing is blue, white and less black, also monochrome. All structures are monochrome; merely chromatic picture is formed with different monochromes. But at that time I found many reasons to explain for myself. I think the biggest problem should be left and the problems encountered at one time could be solved in steps. During the period of black and white works, there was concept of multicolor in my mind. It is impracticable if there is only strong vision on a picture for me. Art must show more things with simple methods, otherwise, you are failing. But finally I have to return to color, to form a big theme through the combination of works with different emphasis and different profiles. Q: At that time, in subsequent chromatic works, those repetitive individual figures seem to disappear. Does it mean your theme is changed? A: the change is the representation of theme, rather than theme. It’s just like on stage, sometimes playactors are in the back of the stage, sometimes playactors are in the front of the stage. Now I will move these figures to the foreground. People will feel but can’t say clearly. At that time I had an important idea, namely to expect to portray as fine as possible, so that there is hardly any touch. Then all details are dealt along the shape. If you stare at it, you will feel you fall into a trap. The details in works are completely opposite with details in everyday life. All details are just a trap. With this idea, I started to make it come true with great efforts. Q: At the end of this chromatic series, you started to draw some flowers, rather than above-mentioned water. Do these flowers have especial significance to you? A: I have a sort of preference for flowers, while it has no relationship with language of the time. Actually flowers are garish here. I always try other forms after completed one series every time. If there is possibility of development, it will be kept on. These flowers are just a foreshadowing. I cover up some foreshadowing for every works with consciousness. These flowers brought splendid things afterwards. Li Xianting had said that I drew flowers was the forward awareness to consumption culture. In fact, there is mistake in aspect of understanding. Flowers primarily come from life, which is the matter of educational background. Man and boy, good things are showed for us, and bad things are attempted to cover up. But the biggest impact for me is things behind nicety. Regarded all works as one works, sometimes I make works completely bright. There is no especial implication in the works concerning flowers. I just want to push something to extremity, in this way, the whole tendency of my works will be clearer and the content is larger. There are sharks, sunshine and human’s expression in posterior works, which is a kind of technique to make works return to the most modest and low-pitched state from an extremity. This is a kind of arrangement, namely all themes of works are decided beforehand and each selection of language is the selection with integration. Completing the series, I started to draw water again, namely to scale water up and attempt the treatment of water clandestinely. The whole sense doesn’t break away from previous works. The profile of figures in foreground is the same to those in previous works and the details are just the same, too, so it will be naturally ranged into previous style. I will not be limited after finishing an affair. Quite a few people will be limited when their styles are established. They are afraid of attempting new styles, and then their space will be increasingly narrow till the vitality is lost completely. In a natural way, artists should develop the possibility rather than otherwise measures after completed one works. In order to ensure that language will not be limited and space will not be reduced, sometimes I would rather do some failing works to break original scope. The purpose of flowers is to extend contents of pictures, while the appearance of water is in the works. Artists must create the simplest and strongest things. The youth have no choice but to impress on somebody with sedulity and impact, for generally the youth have no fame. Moreover, there should not be big negligence after they are noticed. Only on this basis, they can have an ease. Then you can transfer your emphases to the sense and issue. When people must pay attention to your every thing or people have interest in your every thing, your space and freedom will be increased. The reason why I arranged water rearwards is that I think the image of water is much weaker than calvities. Q: Why do you return to black-and-white works creation after chromatic series? A: It is different on language between these black and white works and previous works, just like thunder and lightning. The latter is more visual. That I engage in black and white works again imply some kind of review. The scale of my works at that time is the alternation of black and white and chromatic color basically. During this black and white period, works started to relate to water and the implication of works started to change gradually. I like the works that don’t press on others. I expect that the relationship between audience and works is fulfilled when audience leave rather than researching in front of my works. The best is that audience feels nothing when he is in front of my works, but he will find there is something unclear when he is turning around, and then turn around again, but he will find there is nothing on the picture itself. I expect the relationship between works and audiences is established after audiences leave the works, and it is preferred that audiences leave the exhibition completely. This is always my target. Q: You turn to the theme of water soon after black and white works. Did you meet any problems then? A: The gestation period of water series was about 3 years. At that time, there was a factor delayed the water works, namely I saw the works of David Hockney. Firstly I didn’t know whether the original plan should be kept on, but I did later on. In my opinion, my development scent was line rather than point. I should keep on my own route, which would have nothing to do with others’ style. Then I started to paint water. What I represent is completely different with Hockney, moreover I have confidence that even my works is not very good, others will know what I want to say. When this problem is solved, I was freer. This idea is very similar to the works of Xie Deqing that he can’t enter into the house for one entire year. Freedom is to do what you want. It is not free whether you can’t enter into house or you have no choice but to stay in house. You are free if you can not only enter into house but also not in house. Q: As what you said, each of your series is planned and developed around matters, then what problems do you need to solve for water series? A: The treatment of water primarily emphasizes content. Like architects, artists are responsible that they must provide space, rather than a sort of prompt like teaching children. Artists should let people have some individual understanding. This is a kind of responsibility, and this is the fundamental purpose of good art for me. For the treatment of water, another emphasis is simplicity. Simplicity is the pure problem of artistic language. Provided that I paint a floating straw, the quality of the works is changed and it will send wrong sign to audiences. Now there must be nothing for audiences, only in this way audiences can feel the theme personally. I will not create works for single reason. Q: About the subject of water, what is the most attraction for you? A: It is neutral, in my opinion. I always like neutral things, for example a bald head. Besides water makes the artist look absent from the picture, thus the viewers will be easy to get into a kind of state. Artists should exit from the picture. In addition to passion and composition, especial natural state can help audience feel the picture without obstacle. On the basis of this idea, the property in works is very important. The reason why I selected water is that the water is neither good nor bad, necessary and completely natural. So I think the implication of water is extra fine and the relationship between water and human is always in relatively doubtful scope. Q: Are there any difference and relation between what you said that the state without artists and the idea that details are used to attract audience and the realistic education you received in your academy? A: There must be relationship between the both; moreover we may be influenced by realism in the final analyses. It is hard to say which one makes me inclined to realistic measure, academy education or real life. In my opinion, real life has greater impact on me. Q: Did you meet any problems when you painted water? A: We should say that technical problems exist all the time. It is the most difficult when artists are facing things with nothing. All self-assumed artists pay attention to details; moreover, they like parading and painting details. It is impossible for beginners, but so long as you persist for several years, these detail will become easy and the unvalued. A great many inferior artists like displaying their details. On the other hand, whether these details can be got rid of may be a big problem. Kids may parade what they can say, but adults can select what they should say as necessary. When I painted figures, I cancel details without consciousness basically. At that time, in my opinion, these details were in the way and the effect was not perfect. When I painted water, I faced this problem directly to see whether I can paint quite vacant and release. Details have great charm for ever, while this problem is solved from the view of psychology at this time and then noticed with consciousness. Q: I find there is a kind of breakthrough after each works to attempt towards other directions. Is there any especial significance for such arrangement? A: Everything you did and experienced is your treasure, rather than binding and limit for you. I am against that artists can not do what they have done, so my works is either ended with familiar faces or begun with familiar faces. This is planned with consciousness, because I wanted to form such an impression, namely all these things are not independent, instead there is a kind of scent in it. Q: As if even in water series, you also adopt the alternation obetween lack and white and chromatic color. A: It is a matter of not only language but also working order. I am accustomed to use black and white for preparation, because black and white has independent value. Black and white works has a sense different from color. Meanwhile black and white works is also a preparatory process. By contraries, chromatic works is also a preparatory process for black and white works. It is such a circulatory state. Q: Why do you regard the order of black and white works and chromatic works so important? For example, after technical problems are solved, you can abandon black and white form, or when black and white works achieved certain degree and effect, you don’t need chromatic color any longer. You have said that you had decided the step and direction approximately after graduation and you developed as this direction. Why didn’t you amend such direction? A: There are many reasons: firstly, I expect it seems to be an involuntary form, so I try my best to create works with old and familiar things and make others immersed into my planned state without any consciousness. I can’t create and innovate endless. In addition to early works, I must build a strong visual effect and I also like attract people in secret. I often adopt realistic form, so my works usually looks like presswork without great passion. Q: Can what you said be understood as you must control your passion to communicate with audiences? : This is a matter of ideology. It is a strange loop. Artists can not get into such strange loop. Some artists don’t innovate and merely keep to technologies; some artists do nothing but innovation. The both are not natural state. Whether one is afraid of innovation or not is not called freedom. The real freedom is you find effective form well suited for you. It is the same cases of farmers cultivate land and workers manufacture tools. The most important is that how it is used conveniently for you. I will select an effective language for the society and the public as best as I can. I can’t expect to get honor, money and a great many things from the public, and then cheat or look down upon the public and adopt a kind of language the public can’t understand. I like communicating with people, so I must choose the simplest, gentlest and easiest language. Q: Respecting the realism, what do you think of the realism style? A: Realism is just a form, in my opinion. Q: Just you said art is created for the public, which is a representative realism viewpoint, but now you say realism is just a form, is it incompatible? A: Realism is just a form for me. For example, the form of realism on picture is easy to understand for the public; moreover, it conforms to conditions we see day to day. It is the same case of speaking, someone likes reciting philosophy, someone likes using new word and someone likes general speaking. Realism is equivalent to general speaking in art. Someone can help people seek after the good with general speaking, someone can do business with general speaking, someone can inveigle a maiden to a whore with general speaking, and someone can agitate for a rebellion with general speaking, so for one form, the results are different with different purposes. So realism is just a form for me, but its core can be completely different. Q: After these works, there are some figures behind water. Is it the change of the form in chromatic series? A: There are many difficulties in creating these works, because what they discuss is concerning with memory and disremembrance. There seems to be a strong sense in my mind that a great many things have happened and are reacting, but we are not clear. Here are not only conceivable things but also incognizant things. I expect to consider this aspect, but it is a difficult topic， Because the easiest for painting is to describe a specific condition, instead of discussing such a topic. It was very tough when I created these works, while they may be not very successful. But I struggled for this aspect and I engaged in such consideration with extraordinary verdant and strange state. I think there is no necessary to do all things well in one-time work. Q: What urges you to concern the neglect and disremembrance? Or is it still the planned topic? A: This is the result of education from childhood. Because man and boy, there are a lot of various cheat. Why are we cheated? Because we don’t take notice of those doubtful points, as a matter of fact, there are many points that can be exploded for any cheat. But we neglect them. Such spurious sense is too strong, especially in our community. So I take especial notice of those areas that are omitted or neglected. Q: I mean why such topic appeared in 1996, instead of 1995 or 1994. A: This is a quite natural process, because I am not entitled to consider such things unless some foundation is built. It is difficult to imagine that a young artist directly sets about such things without any foundation, moreover, the difficulty of technology, language and popularization is quite high. Q: After finishing the exhibition in Japan, your works started to build relationship with new public with one form. Then at that time did you think what kinds of people your audiences are? Did you amend your concept to audiences? A: It can not be changed, because I meet a kind of audience today and I will meet another kind of audience tomorrow. The starting point of my works is to express something with simplest and easiest language, so I am not afraid to meet with audience or establish such relationship with audiences, even produce contradiction with audiences. Q: When you came to Amsterdam, your works within this period seemed an exception, which looked quite different from your creations at home. Seen from the perspective of pictures, they give us a feeling of classical Europe paintings, however, when you return such a feeling just disappears. A: At that time I went abroad for half a year to see for the cultural gap, and I didn’t feel much influence. But now it seems to me quite necessary. Actually under that circumstance, I could hardly quieten myself down thinking about the problem of language. With fierce competition abroad, the artistic speech will tend to grow more intensive and simplified. The works of“Sunshine”was started before I went abroad, from which you can find out some connection with my works in 1984. These works about sunshine is sure to be continued, and now it’s just an end to a stage. However, it’s rather difficult for me, for it’s as vacant as water and sometimes more difficult than water. Q: Does sunshine attract you for the same reason as water attracts you? A: Sunshine is multivariant. What I’ve chosen is enchanting sunshine, which makes you feel it in motion if you stare at it for long. Some people may find sunshine fantastic, while some others may have a scorch feel on occasion. As the author, my attitude is amphibolous, which has its expression in picture of motions. Both water and sunshine in my works are representative of“uncertainty”, which also explains why every stage of works of mine would walk to some extremity. I hope all of them could become a kind of hints, with different implications, to make themselves look more multivariate, leaving a wider space for creation. Q: While you are enlarging the content in your picture, you keep working at the same subject, such as the Back of Bare-headed, the repetitive relationship between your engravings and oil paintings, etc. Can you tell us about the reasons? A: First of all it’s out of technical arrangement. Besides, for me, my subject for discussion is humanity, towards which everybody has his continual accumulation of knowledge ever started from childhood. During this process, there are plenty of chances which are inter-connected. Some of them seem to have gone in time, but may actually remain in our mind; some others may have already fled away from our mind, but they should be remembered all the time. My intentional repetition of such subjects has something to do with my inner feelings. Q: Compared with your previous works, your current works appear to contain more specific signs, among which the most typical thing is description of young pioneers. You have ever said you focused on abstract persons, but now it looks as if you had more and more personal experience and memory symbols in your works,and such a change seemed to happen after you went to Amsterdam. A: You cannot depend on one stage of works of yours to completely solve the problems during your lifetime. I may as well express a person of general characteristics through abstract means, but it doesn’t mean I’m not an individual, or I pay no attention to individuals; nor can it imply there is no existence of individuals in my works. I have my own freedom, so I think I can talk about individuals, which should not be an obstacle to me. I stress more on the state of freedom. On this occasion I’m actually implicating my knowledge and the source of it, so this is suggestive. Sometimes I will focus my works on a special small point, which is otherwise indispensable to the whole structure. Q: Through such a long time of conversation, we can find that you had been working with definitude clues in your paintings by 1998. However, after 1998 your works began to develop in many different directions, containing a large variety of subjects or contents, with different kinds of means in painting, and sometimes you even go with several works simultaneously. Did you see any new chance in such working manners? Or rather, why did you act that way? A: After so many different stages during the past years, I have almost finished setting up my own framework, and more or less completed the plan launched in 1990 or so. Moreover, now I feel my works can have an effect that nobody is present and everyone just keeps onlooking, which was also reflected in my earliest works. I have been working at such things, and in this way I can avoid plunging into a group of works or a sort of style too attentively. Thus I think I’m free in these aspects. Q: What do you think of the title of“Cynical Realism”that people have labeled on you? Do you think this concept of“Cynical”still exerts has an effect on you? A: These may have time length in several aspects. For different time periods, it has various profiles. A few years ago, the title of“Cynical Realism”might be an exact symbol of my conditions. I didn’t have any mood of satisfaction or dissatisfaction. Everything requires an incised point, so we need not focus our discussion on such a primary point. People who pursue an career of art are all aimed for a state of freedom, but then there were some of them willing to get themselves covered for small amounts of benefits. If you have made up your mind to seek for your career, you would never choose to stay beneath the cover, unless you were incapable of escaping from it.

作者：Pi,Li